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Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by deng on Thursday June 09, 2016 @10:49AM (#11869720)
> It has no lineage in common with Linux.

That's not what he wrote. In its initial release, OS X did depend heavily on free software (Samba, Apache, GNU, etc.), which again thrived because of Linux.

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by gaius on Thursday June 09, 2016 @10:53AM (#11869763)
It would be more accurate to say Linux thrived because of them! Samba IIRC predates Linux too, as does the GNU project, Apache is based on the original httpd which was built on... Drum roll... NeXTStep. In 1990, before Linux existed.
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by pvg on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:01AM (#11869816)
Apache was a fork of NCSA httpd, not CERN httpd.
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by iheartmemcache on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:15AM (#11869922)
Came in here to be that guy and make this comment, but you beat me to it. Have an up-vote.

I can't anyone is even disputing the fact that OS X didn't largely benefit from the fact that there was tons of GNU/GPL tooling out of the box that power users could use. Bash? GCC/G++ (before the clang/llvm migration out)? GNU. X-windows (granted I don't think many people used it post-Carbon, but I remember using it on my iBook 266mhz...).

\/ Edit: Mea culpa. IIRC you're right re: tcsh. I haven't used OS X as a daily operating system since first year undergrad (placing that at just under a decade) so afford me some liberties with details, kindly :)

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by pvg on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:43AM (#11870135)
Well, OS X's ancestors had a largely BSD-derived userspace so that's neither here nor there. The strongest claim and perhaps biggest contribution, I think, was GCC on which NeXTs Objective C compiler was based from the beginning.
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by QuercusMax on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:47AM (#11870167)
If my memory serves me right, early OSX used tcsh as the default shell; it wasn't till around 10.4 or so that they switched to bash.
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by gaius on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:43AM (#11870126)
GNU yes, but GNU pre-dates Linux. I first used GCC on SunOS.
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by Retric on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:14AM (#11869914)
NCSA httpd also predates Linux.

NCSA httpd released version 0.1 was June 1991. http://www.w3.org/Daemon/Features.html

Amusingly: http://www.diam.unige.it/informatica/documentazione/httpd_do... "3.5) Why doesn't NCSA HTTPd work on my Linux system? NCSA HTTPd is not crippled. Linux may be crippled. NCSA HTTPd uses a standard BSD4 and SYSV feature known as file descriptor passing. NCSA HTTPd supports both the BSD and SYSV style of file descriptor passing. Linux chose not to implement either."

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by batbomb on Thursday June 09, 2016 @12:41PM (#11870531)
That's CERN httpd release notes for 0.1 @ 1991, not NCSA. NCSA didn't join the web until much later.

In fact, SLAC was first to the web in the USA, and Marc had originally approached my boss, who wrote MidasWWW, to see if he'd want to collaborate on the web browser which would become Mosaic.

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by Retric on Thursday June 09, 2016 @02:28PM (#11871315)
Doh, missed the edit window. However, it's clear that NCSA was not initially developed on or for Linux.

PS: An interesting side note, the SGML standard committee decided not to include hyperlinks which more or less directly resulted in HMTL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Generalized_Markup_La... I wonder if that would have pushed the web forward even faster or not as HTML is far less strict, but you could make a less strict render for SGML as well.

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by kazinator on Thursday June 09, 2016 @01:56PM (#11871069)
> Samba IIRC predates Linux too

I don't think so. But IRC predates Linux. :)

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by ajsalminen on Thursday June 09, 2016 @08:32PM (#11873433)
What many of these comments seem to be missing is that I don't think Doc Searls meant Linux the kernel when he said this. He meant Linux the OS (which some want to call GNU/Linux as he mentioned) with all these parts included.

All of these components played their part in the rise of the OS and benefited from each other. The Linux kernel as well as things like the GNU project were absolutely necessary for this ecosystem to becoming a reality and that is what OS X benefited from as well.

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by cm3 on Thursday June 09, 2016 @12:01PM (#11870265)
> Samba IIRC predates Linux too

Not quite, actually.

Samba => sometime in 1992

Linux => October 1991

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by qbrass on Thursday June 09, 2016 @12:42PM (#11870536)
http://www.rxn.com/services/faq/smb/samba.history.txt

It wasn't invented for Linux, but Samba exists today because of it.

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by stormbrew on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:27AM (#11870023)
Also most of the early adopters of osx that I knew at the time were actively seeking out a unixy desktop because they worked on software eventually destined for Linux servers and didn't like the available desktop options for Linux.

Not to say that was the entire market, but it was a good chunk of it.

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by ethbro on Thursday June 09, 2016 @12:51PM (#11870589)
This is a critical point. There are probably people on this board who were born after Ubuntu/Linux desktop UX received attention.

For reference, older Linux desktop options were... well, I'll just say they played a lot like Dwarf Fortress.

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by arcanus on Thursday June 09, 2016 @01:45PM (#11870981)
I used to schedule time after updating to fix my broken X11 server
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by stephenr on Friday June 10, 2016 @04:07PM (#11879596)
You're suggesting there are younger than 11 year olds reading hacker news?
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by ethbro on Friday June 10, 2016 @07:22PM (#11880949)
Wouldn't surprise me if there's at least one. Always outliers.
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by hrktb on Thursday June 09, 2016 @02:33PM (#11871362)
Only speaking for myself, but I initally switched to OSX right from FreeBSD because of the similarity . At that point the PHP+MySQL stack was still faster on BSD (mainly because of yahoo I think) and the ports system much easier to use than rpms for instance.

Otherwise I only saw Solaris or commercial types of unix (like what came with IBM servers) in use in companies I directly worked with. I understand that linux was already rising pretty strong, but tried and true Unix/BSD systems were definitely seen as the more 'serious'/professional choices.

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by bluedino on Thursday June 09, 2016 @04:51PM (#11872289)
>> At that point the PHP+MySQL stack was still faster on BSD

Which was interesting because then Linux became faster, and had things like better SMP support that didn't get improved in BSD to give it the performance edge until 2007 or so...

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by vetinari on Thursday June 09, 2016 @01:02PM (#11870666)
In the beginning (10.0 - 10.2 timeframe), OSX was pretty much broken if you wanted to work on software that was destined for Linux. Even the existing software was PITA to get running on OSX, you were fighting both autotools and OSX linker and libraries at once.
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by fit2rule on Thursday June 09, 2016 @01:22PM (#11870810)
Not strictly true, it was quite possible to write code on OSX that could be run on Solaris and Linux easily enough. You just had to not depend on autotools too much, and understand how to use the OSX linker/libraries properly in your project.

(Disclaimer: I am one of those programmers who only switched to Apple because of the tiBook, which was a damned sexy Unix workstation in spite of the fact it was also a damned sexy laptop.. and I used it for developing apps for Linux and SGI Irix without much hassle.)

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by vetinari on Thursday June 09, 2016 @05:31PM (#11872544)
> it was quite possible to write code on OSX that could be run on Solaris and Linux easily enough. You just had to not depend on autotools too much, and understand how to use the OSX linker/libraries properly in your project.

You had to take care to use libraries/APIs that were available at all three systems (no dlopen() or dlsym() at the time in OSX!), and take quirks of the OSX linker into account.

(Disclaimer: I was getting angry at Apple at the time. In a few years, they went through OS9->OSX migration, getting rid of Classic mode in emulation and now switching to Intel. They were breaking compatibility again; it meant buying new software like MS Office again - looking at the PC side, they didn't have such problem. So PB12 was my last Mac for a long time... until 2015, actually).

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by stormbrew on Thursday June 09, 2016 @01:48PM (#11871006)
I don't really consider that to be the early adopter phase of OSX. If you go by the whole technological lifecycle theory that'd be the innovator phase (though realistically I think it was mostly just the most die-hard left of the old guard Apple fanatics).

To me it's when the Intel macs came along (10.4.4 I think) that new adopters really started picking up steam, but the ecosystem they helped build wasn't really there yet.

At least, that's my perception.

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by simonh on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:18AM (#11869954)
Solaris was a much bigger deal than Linux well into the OSX era. In fact if Linux had never happened Solaris would probably still be around and we'd be arguing about how much OS X owes to Solaris and whether it matters that SunOS predated NEXT but Solaris didn't.
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by bigger_cheese on Thursday June 09, 2016 @06:51PM (#11872965)
The computer labs at my uni were Solaris workstations almost everyone hated them. I completed most of our assigned work using Linux on my home pc (along with a heap of other students in my class) this was in late 90's.

Everyone was buzzing about Linux. The general attitude was 'Why would you run Solaris when you could just run Linux'

Maybe in other segments Solaris was a 'big deal' but for students and developers Linux was a game changer.

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by simonh on Friday June 10, 2016 @04:33AM (#11875047)
You are absolutely correct, Linux was a game changer. It deserves it's success. No argument there at all. That's not what we're talking about though. I don't believe Linux's success had any appreciable benefits for OS X. Linux came along far too late in the day to play that role.
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by deng on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:29AM (#11870040)
> In fact if Linux had never happened Solaris would probably still be around and we'd be arguing about how much OS X owes to Solaris

Hardly. How would have Apple developed a full userland and development toolchain with the resources it had at that time? That's exactly the point of the article: OS X wouldn't be where it is without Linux (read: GNU/Linux), not because it was technically the best Unix (it wasn't), but because it was free software.

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by simonh on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:40AM (#11870112)
You do know that OS X was just a rebranding of NeXTSTEP which dates back to 1985 and so had all those things (dev tool chain, userland, etc) 6 years before Linux started, right? How much did NeXTSTEP owe to Linux, say in 1990?
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by vetinari on Thursday June 09, 2016 @01:11PM (#11870732)
NexTSTEP didn't have a lot of stuff that OSX had. Samba comes to mind. Another are autofs, bash, curl, less, libxml2, libxslt, screen and countless others.
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by simonh on Thursday June 09, 2016 @04:39PM (#11872198)
Samba, bash, screen and autofs all predate Linux and most of the rest were either initially developed on others unixes or at least at a time when Linux was far away from its current dominance. The idea that modern OSX relies in any material way on Linux is simply obviously false to anyone with a basic understanding of the history of UNIX.

Linux succeeded due to its compatibility with this rich ecosystem of software, not the other way around.

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by vetinari on Thursday June 09, 2016 @05:21PM (#11872488)
At the time, GNU had a problem: they had almost complete userland, but no kernel. That meant, that you needed some other expensive system to run the GNU software. Hurd was just around the corner, for years.

What Linux changed that it opened the GNU software to much wider audience. You didn't need an expensive Sun workstation, cheap (relatively, at the time) PC was enough.

With the Linux kernel and GNU software, you had a complete, usable system, that anybody could use. Many people did, and they contributed back. The development accelerated.

So technically, no, OSX doesn't rely on Linux-the-kernel. But it benefited by the increased exposure GNU software got.

(Samba is about a year younger than Linux-the-kernel.)

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by JdeBP on Thursday June 09, 2016 @03:03PM (#11871531)
screen was posted to net.sources in March 1987, under the name BSD screen manager. It made it to comp.sources.unix in August 1987 (v10i095), and was BSD multi-screen manager.

Linux did not exist at the time.

Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by tzs on Thursday June 09, 2016 @12:37PM (#11870504)
Apple had a full UNIX userland and development tool chain years before Linux existed. It was called A/UX.
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by gaius on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:41AM (#11870119)
Err, it would have got them from NeXT which got them partially from GNU. No Linux was involved in the making of this operating system.
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by panglott on Thursday June 09, 2016 @12:01PM (#11870261)
Mac OS X borrowed that stuff from BSD, not Linux.
Re:We won the battle for Linux, but we're losing the battle ... by MustardTiger on Thursday June 09, 2016 @05:48PM (#11872641)
None of that thrived because of linux. And OSX didn't depend on them at all, it simply provided some of them. OSX would still exist without bash.