News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by jfoutz on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @02:59PM (#11856846)
I'm pretty sure Iran captured that US drone with GPS spoofing. I have no idea how you could provide that data in a secure way. But, uh, i can envision some scenarios where the bad guys would want to remotely take over planes.

Also, i'm not so sure about the graceful failure. Hypothetically, the human takes over. But if the human hasn't actually flown in months or years the'll likely be kind of rusty. Now you're throwing them into a complex situation - the autopilot can handle the simple stuff. Coupling weak skills with difficult situations seems like a bad idea.

I kinda think autopilots and self driving cars should give a limited clock. Every, say hour you do it manually buys you a few hours of autopilot. Just to keep skills relatively fresh.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by drhodes on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:08PM (#11856923)
There's a recent econtalk episode that delves into transferring control from machine to human. Specifically, regarding the air france disaster:

"The Air France story is a story about a failed handoff, where the automation onboard an airplane found a relatively minor fault and handed control of the plane back to the human pilots, too suddenly and ungracefully surprised them. And they had lost some of their skills flying too much with the automated systems and lost control of the airplane. Which actually was a perfectly good airplane about a minute into the crisis. And so they went from tens of thousands of feet flying through the sky and ended up spiraling into the ocean, tragically losing all aboard."

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2015/11/david_mindell_o.htm...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by jfoutz on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:18PM (#11856996)
That tragedy was probably the seed of my concern. Lately i've been thinking a lot about how automated systems become brittle. The systems don't change, people forget the dependencies and requirements and in something real time like an airplane, the feel of the system.

A configuration management system that incorporated spaced repetition would be cool. Every once in a while, go into an incremental mode where you actually type in the commands. It has the added bonus of getting new people aware of the system. Sure, you can always just go read the source and figure it out. Having the system force some human awareness from time to time would be handy.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by ethbro on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @04:42PM (#11857640)
Why hand control back to a human when you can do even better?

Have them both handling control at the same time, reconcile the inputs in a sane manner (or have a master/slave where one is providing phantom inputs). Added benefit of being able to error check each other.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockstep_(computing)

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by koenigdavidmj on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @05:22PM (#11857978)
This was exactly the problem in the Airbus crash shown above; reconciling the inputs is hard. One pilot kept holding one stick back, unbeknownst to the other. This plane averages them by default, and therefore the plane stalled. That couldn't happen on a Boeing because the yokes are yokes (inputs on one are easily visible to both pilots) and physically linked.

(Supposedly the plane is supposed to loudly complain if the inputs diverge. I'm not sure if this happened.)

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by theoh on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @06:02PM (#11858327)
The Airbus did make the expected warnings ("DUAL INPUT") when the control inputs conflicted, at least according to this Vanity Fair article: http://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-f...
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by saint_fiasco on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @06:21PM (#11858463)
"DUAL INPUT" is only marginally better than "PC LOAD LETTER"
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by schoen on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @07:09PM (#11858771)
On the other hand, typical Airbus A330 operators probably have a lot better training about what diagnostic messages mean than typical HP LaserJet operators do.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by ceejayoz on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @07:30PM (#11858888)
On the other other hand, two pilots issuing opposite control inputs generally has a bit more impact than an empty printer tray. Boeing's relatively low-tech solution of making the two controls physically interlinked seems like a common-sense solution to a potentially immense issue.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by snowwrestler on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @08:48AM (#11861849)
But obviously the training did not suffice in the Air France case, because those were experienced Airbus pilots and they did not detect and resolve the contrary inputs.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by lallysingh on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @09:18AM (#11862055)
Something easy to ignore when you're freaking out over a plane going straight into the ocean.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by ceejayoz on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @07:12PM (#11858790)
Yeah. In an emergency with a frazzled brain it's entirely possible someone'd read that and say "No shit, of course we're both trying to pull up..."
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by caf on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @08:55PM (#11859257)
Pulling up being exactly the wrong action in this case!
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by engi_nerd on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @07:32PM (#11858897)
As others point out, just because the warning is displayed as expected, does not make it a good warning.

In flight testing, whenever we encounter situations like this (the aircraft does not react as the pilot expects for a given input), we don't necessarily blame the pilot. Especially if multiple pilots get into the same mess. Then we know it's time to change how the aircraft behaves and bring it in line with what the pilots expect.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by mikeash on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @09:31PM (#11859387)
A little blinkenlight among the masses is easy to miss. Having your controls physically fight you because the other pilot is doing something is impossible to miss.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by theoh on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @08:23AM (#11861693)
It was actually a voice alert. I'm not making any judgement about its appropriateness.

In fact by the time it arose, the aircraft may already have been in an unrecoverable dive (or whatever the word is for rapid descent while stalled), I don't remember. So it's not a primary cause of the accident.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by mikeash on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @09:27AM (#11862103)
A voice alert in a cockpit where people are probably frantically shouting at each other is just as ridiculous.

There's no substitute for physical feedback. It's instantaneous and impossible to miss. It's completely beyond my comprehension that Airbus eliminated it.

As I recall, the one pilot held full back stick all the way down, while the other pilot tried and failed to recover. Releasing the back stick and executing a normal stall recovery would have saved the airplane at just about any time.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by theoh on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @04:12PM (#11865271)
I understand the Boeing approach of physical linkage to be the best idea, rather than any kind of indirect force feedback which is possible to misinterpret.

As for your last point, I'm not an expert, and I'm not as incredulous about this scenario as you seem to be. (As a teenager I did fly a lot in PC flight simulators, though.)

The non-technical Vanity Fair article I referred to claims that the accident investigators estimated the last point at which the aircraft could have recovered from the dive was around the time it passed 13,000 feet:

"Though precise modeling was never pursued, the investigators later estimated that this was the last moment, as the airplane dropped through 13,000 feet, when a recovery would theoretically have been possible. The maneuver would have required a perfect pilot to lower the nose at least 30 degrees below the horizon and dive into the descent, accepting a huge altitude loss in order to accelerate to a flying angle of attack, and then rounding out of the dive just above the waves, pulling up with sufficient vigor to keep from exceeding the airplane’s speed limit, yet not so violently as to cause a structural failure. There are perhaps a handful of pilots in the world who might have succeeded, but this Air France crew was not among them. There is an old truth in aviation that the reasons you get into trouble become the reasons you don’t get out of it."

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by mikeash on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @08:06PM (#11866702)
If that's what they did then I believe it. I'm coming from a light aircraft background where stall recovery takes much less altitude. Still, they had about two thirds of their descent to initiate recovery before it became too late. If the controls had been linked, the other pilot would have discovered the problem instantly.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by mattkrause on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:53PM (#11863632)
I don't understand why you'd want this averaging behavior at all.

When trying to get the plane onto the center of the runway, both pilots' actions are probably pretty correlated, and averaging could remove any noise (e.g., twitches).

But in many other circumstances, it seems like it would be downright dangerous. Something's in front of the plane. One pilot goes to the left, the other pulls to the right, and the system averages the commands and smashes straight into it.

The benefits of a marginally straighter landing don't seem like they would outweigh the potential of a massive catastrophe.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by fencepost on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @04:09PM (#11857393)
Perhaps all critical automated systems should have some level of Chaos Monkey testing built into them, though it might be best if it was good enough to not fail even if that test was failed.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by jfoutz on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @08:22PM (#11859143)
Chaos Monkey is great. I'm suggesting something slightly different. Imagine you have a bunch of cent 6 machines that have been running great for years and years. upgrades go smoothly and deployment is a breeze. Now you need to upgrade to cent 7. Stuff that used to happen in init.d now happens in the systemd, for example.

Reviewing changes by hand every few months keeps you aware of what needs to happen. Automation doesn't get brittle, people forget how systems are flexible and inflexible. Spaced repetition would give people a chance to keep up with the current design, so when that crazy security vulnerability happens, you can jump in and change stuff knowing how it works, rather than having to figure it out on the fly.

I don't think it would take much. Configure a box today, tomorrow, next week, next month, 3 months, then perhaps every 6 months.

There are very smart people that sort of intuitively keep up with those kinds of changes. But those people change jobs. How do you get a mere mortal up to speed on 20-30 machine configurations? config management can configure hundreds of machines a day, no problem. but it's easy to forget what's really going into each of those boxes.

This is more about preserving organizational awareness, not so much robustness of a running system.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by mrpippy on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:59PM (#11857315)
The Langewiesche article is a great read as well, with more details:

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-f...

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by cmurf on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @08:14PM (#11859098)
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by imperialdrive on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @09:35PM (#11859406)
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by spuz on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @05:06PM (#11857837)
Thanks, that's a really interesting episode.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by jandrewrogers on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @07:27PM (#11858872)
The military has never used GPS guidance systems, the Soviets could disable it at will when it was designed. Consequently, no amount of spoofing GPS will cause a serious navigation error. The assertion of GPS-guided systems in the US military is a widely repeated myth that never seems to die even though even cursory research confirms that it is a myth.

US military systems pervasively use inertial navigation (INS), many of which can accept micro-corrections from the GPS system. However, they only accept corrections within the intrinsic error bound of INS, which is quite small. Spoofing GPS can buy you a deflection of meters at most, not kilometers.

The US military is developing new types of inertial navigation systems that are so accurate that it obviates the use of GPS altogether. (And the media will probably still call those systems "GPS-guided".)

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by patrickg_zill on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @08:33PM (#11859181)
Are you sure about this? Why does the DoD SBIR mention GPS spoofing avoidance as something they will fund?

The INS system you mention has small errors, which aggregate/accumulate over time, this time being in minutes and tens of minutes.

These errors cannot be rectified inside the INS, from what I understand. They require external fixes, like GPS.

I am willing to be wrong however.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by jandrewrogers on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @10:50PM (#11859657)
The US military has many use cases for GPS far beyond weapon guidance and navigation. Many of these use cases cannot be served by INS and are both high value and done primarily in peace time i.e. the loss of the GPS constellation in a war won't affect the military utility of having the GPS constellation generally. Spoofing these use cases is still a giant nuisance.

There are a couple things that people forget about US military INS:

US military INS actually operates as a giant swarm of INS computers with other sensor inputs that compare notes -- wisdom of crowds -- to correct accuracy. If one INS computer drifts too much, the other INS computers will notice and correct it. Even without the swarm, many larger military systems will have multiple INS computers distributed throughout the platform that can compare notes.

The US military has been at the forefront of inventing exotic INS technology since the 1960s, and the details of their INS capabilities are a closely guarded secret. It is used ubiquitously in almost every combat system they produce. What is known is that even in the 1990s the accuracy of INS significantly exceeded design requirements, and there are current military research programs that suggest they know how to build INS that exceeds current GPS accuracy over long temporal baselines.

Given that they already have a GPS constellation that they use for a wide variety of other cases, GPS-corrected INS guidance is a very cheap way to squeeze some additional precision out of weapons that were already pretty precise in the first place. It allows them to build a dirt cheap and reliable guidance package that is also highly precise in environments where GPS spoofing is not a credible problem. Remember, these particular guidance packages tend to be modular and swappable: use the cheap stuff that leans on GPS more for low tech enemies, use more sophisticated and expensive INS for the high tech enemies.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by Nrsolis on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:15AM (#11874261)
Ummm...no.

Certain systems do indeed operate as you say, with INS as the primary guidance/navigation mechanism. Submarines for instance, cannot rely on a GPS fix. Strategic missiles as well.

But ground forces do indeed use GPS systems. INS systems are very costly to build and maintain, go GPS is a go-to for missions and requirements where it's a good fit. You simply cannot outfit every ground-pounder with an INS system and then keep it properly operational in their task envelope.

Also, parts of the GPS system are quite jam-resistant. Not entirely, but when it was first developed, GPS was pretty secure for it's time, using a cryptographically derived spreading code for the carrier.

Here is an example of a system in use today:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Advanced_GPS_Receive...

Some of you might be interested in an article I wrote on the subject:

https://sofrep.com/46818/gps-spoofing-how-iran-tricked-us-pa...

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by poof131 on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @10:03PM (#11859519)
You are right. The military relies on INS and GPS. Most systems such as the navigation in an F/A-18 are INS with GPS to maintain accuracy like you described. I thought JDAM was entirely GPS, but apparently it is only an INS supplement to.[1] Cruise missiles use both plus terrain mapping.[2] Military could probably handle total GPS denial, but it would be ugly, especially since it may mean no SATCOM either. I ponder what WW3 looks like and total space denial seems like a strong possibility. Spoofing is probably worse than denial since it isn't just no information but bad information that could throw off the INS.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Direct_Attack_Munition [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahawk_(missile)

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by stronglikedan on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @05:12PM (#11857902)
> But if the human hasn't actually flown in months or years the'll likely be kind of rusty.

Along the same lines:

I work in manufacturing, and design systems to automate processes. "What is the current, manual process?" is the first thing I ask for when beginning a new project. I then try to design the automated system, so that the manual process can be used as a fallback should any part of the automated system fail. What happens when we have a network outage or something similar? The people involved suddenly forget the manual processes that they had used for years, and sit around twiddling their thumbs and calling IT every 5 minutes asking when the system will be back up.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by wsinks on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @06:06PM (#11858350)
I'm so sorry that you seem to do your job in an elegant way and that the other humans can't seem to respect that.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by stronglikedan on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @07:04PM (#11858733)
They respect me and I respect them, and I'm far from elegant, so I'm not really sure how you inferred any of that. I just find it funny how fast they forget processes that they did everyday for years, after relying on the automation - just like the pilots in the story I was relating to. I'm the one that has to remind them what their manual processes were, which is why I ask the question and document the response first and foremost.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by rtuins on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:12PM (#11856954)
I don't think it was spoofing as military probably uses encrypted GPS signals.

What Iran did probably simple jamming that caused drone to either crash or emergency land.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by jfoutz on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:36PM (#11857136)
Ah. That's where my flawed memory came from

"... Iranian engineer's assertion that the drone was captured by jamming both satellite and land-originated control signals to the UAV, followed up by a GPS spoofing attack that fed the UAV false GPS data to make it land in Iran ..."

Wikipedia has more of the story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incid...

That was disputed "... GPS is not the primary navigation sensor for the RQ-170..."

Anyway, thanks!

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by dzhiurgis on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @09:01PM (#11859282)
Can you jam the only non-encrypted part of GPS?
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by jhayward on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @10:53AM (#11862615)
Kind of. The GPS signal portfolio is evolving. In the beginning, the encrypted code was broadcast on two frequencies, L1 and L2. The public code was only on L1. So you could in theory jam just L1 to block the un-encrypted portion, but why would you?

In recent years GPS modernization means satellites have been using new codes on L2 (L2C) which are un-encrypted. Only about 18 of the satellites carry that capability at this time.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by dzhiurgis on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @08:40PM (#11866812)
How else are you going to land the drone safely? I think the idea is jam the encrypted data, spoof the unencrypted part to point to your location.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by jhayward on Saturday June 11, 2016 @04:58PM (#11885289)
As far as I know military devices always use the anti-spoof (encrypted) military code, and never the commercial code.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by engi_nerd on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @07:36PM (#11858916)
Given the public knowledge of the old P(Y) code and the new M code, you can remove 'probably' from your first sentence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by gozur88 on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @05:21AM (#11861000)
I agree. At the time people were noting the drone the Iranians were showing off was the wrong color, which would imply they fixed some damage and repainted it.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by akira2501 on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @04:24PM (#11857494)
> But if the human hasn't actually flown in months or years the'll likely be kind of rusty.

Cruising at altitude is not that hard. I'd be far more concerned if they were interfering with the various Instrument Landing Systems during inclement weather.

> Every, say hour you do it manually buys you a few hours of autopilot.

Most pilots already hand-fly in clear weather during landing and takeoff by default; somewhat for the reasons you suggest, but it's also the safer as it actively maintains pilot situational awareness.

You're generally only going to use the A/P during cruise, departure and approach or during instrument flight conditions.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by neurotech1 on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @05:33PM (#11858076)
> Cruising at altitude is not that hard.

Not in RVSM airspace above FL290 (29,000 ft). In RVSM [0] airspace its required to have a functioning autopilot coupled to an altimeter of a certified accuracy (+- 65 feet)

Most pilots couldn't fly the required accuracy, that high up, for any length of time, with manual hand-flying. Even in a FBW airliner, it would be hard.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_vertical_separation_mi...

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by tinix on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @01:33AM (#11860238)
The idea for FL290-FL410 is more to have a designated "highway" of sorts, where all craft are flying within the same system. There is no requirement for auto-pilot above FL410, for example... There are plenty of jets that can easily get that high, it's more about aerodynamics and engineering than pilot skill.

http://www.flyingmag.com/whats-41000-feet

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by tropo on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @08:30PM (#11859174)
No, "Cruising at altitude is not that hard." isn't correct. That is the coffin corner:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffin_corner_(aerodynamics)

Being near the coffin corner is often desirable for performance reasons, but it sure isn't easy.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by revelation on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:09PM (#11856929)
There is a separate encrypted GPS signal, which used to have better precision as the public signals had intentional noise added to them.

Of course, GPS is a rather old system and I'm unclear how you would add encryption in a way that it's not compromised when someone gets access to a decoder but also doesn't endanger "mission success" because a encryption key punch card is missing and the drone refuses to start. It's like the nuclear launch codes being all zeroes.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by tjohns on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @04:12PM (#11857412)
As I understand it, encrypted GPS (L2) does depend on key material being periodically loaded from a fill device for proper operation.

The keys are rotated periodically, so if somebody stole a decoder, it would only work until the key in memory expires. (Military GPS receivers also have a "zeroize" button to destroy the keys in case of imminent capture.)

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by GIFtheory on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @02:38AM (#11860434)
I'm pretty sure Iran is full of crap. If they really had this technology, we'd either have drones raining from the sky, or they'd keep their mouths shut and save it for a special occasion. Also, this: http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2013-04/6-most-absu...
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by kbenson on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:06PM (#11856909)
For graceful failure, I imagine you would want something akin to radar and a topological map so you can match your position, probably combined with lower fidelity means of locating position (angle or location/angle of sun/moon/stars) to reduce the topological map search space if starting from scratch. I would be surprised if the military didn't already have ways to mitigate lack of GPS, considering it's an obvious information attack vector.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by mikeash on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:15PM (#11856972)
Terrain matching has been around for a long time, with the earliest systems dating from the 1950s, so that's definitely a possibility. This gets a lot of use on cruise missiles.

Another fancy way to navigate without GPS is to use automated celestial navigation. The SR-71 had one of these in the 1960s, and it's also good for submarine-launched nuclear missiles. The hardware is able to sight stars even in the middle of the day (and not just the Sun, funny guy).

For commercial aviation, the typical backups are radio beacons such as VOR and NDB, inertial navigation systems, and good old dead reckoning plus pilotage (i.e. looking out the window).

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by jonathankoren on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @05:20PM (#11857961)
Old 747s had a window on the ceiling of the cockpit for using celestial navigation.[0]

Also with the reliance on GPS and its inherent fragility has caused the US Navy to restart training in celestial navigation. In order to reboot the training regimen, the Navy is relying on Coast Guard instructors, since the USCG never stopped.[1]

[0] http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/... [1] http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/tech/2015/11/01/...

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by runjake on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @05:20PM (#11857957)
Military aircraft mostly use GPS and INS for navigation. Cruise missiles the same, as well as TERCOM [1], as you alluded to.

I recently spoke to old aircrew guys I worked with and apparently they stopped teaching manual celestial nav in the late 90s finally. Automated celestrial nav was, per my understanding, never too common although SR-71 aircrews commonly used its system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERCOM

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by lorenzhs on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @09:45PM (#11859452)
It's still pretty common in space stuff. From Wikipedia ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation):

A variation on terrestrial celestial navigation was used to help orient the Apollo spacecraft en route to and from the Moon. To this day, space missions, such as the Mars Exploration Rover use star trackers to determine the attitude of the spacecraft.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by kbenson on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:23PM (#11857038)
I figured it had existed for quite a while, but didn't imagine it traced back to the 1950's.

> Another fancy way to navigate without GPS is to use automated celestial navigation.

I figured as much. I'm just under-informed in this area, and try not to state things as fact that I don't know as such. I did mention the stars, but it didn't occur to me they are visible during the day with the right equipment. :)

> inertial navigation systems

I'm aware these exist (due to some military fiction I've read), but that's the extent of my knowledge. I'm not aware of how accurate they are.

> good old dead reckoning plus pilotage (i.e. looking out the window).

I was thinking of systems that replace pilots, even if for short whiles, not supplement them, so discounted human correction while in flight.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by mikeash on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:30PM (#11857096)
Inertial navigation is interesting because the error starts out at zero and then builds up with time. Let it run for long enough without recalibration and you'll have no clue where you are. Other techniques tend to have steady error bounds. (Aside from dead reckoning, of course, which is basically just inertial navigation done by hand.)

As far as quantifying that growing error, Wikipedia says it's typically less than 0.6 nautical miles per hour. An airliner after a long oceanic flight could know where it was to within a few miles, good enough to reorient and find the destination airport.

Early efforts in autonomous navigation came out of a strong desire to blow up the Soviet Union, so cruise missiles and ICBMs and such are a good place to look if you're interested in early examples.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by jevinskie on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @04:05PM (#11857365)
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by IneffablePigeon on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @05:19PM (#11857953)
Inertial navigation systems are used a lot by submarines, since there's no GPS down there. I think it's pretty accurate, particularly if you combine it with other sensor data like gravitational field strength maps.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by astebbin on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:12PM (#11856951)
Indeed, early cruise missiles used terrain-following radar before GPS was available:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERCOM

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by runjake on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @05:14PM (#11857910)
Military aircraft utilize INS (Inertial Navigation Systems) which are extremely accurate for positioning.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by hamiltonkibbe on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @06:34PM (#11858536)
As part of a larger system yes, but on their own they're only accurate for a while, as they constantly accumulate error. They require input from other sensors (generally GPS) to provide accurate location.
Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by runjake on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:08PM (#11863210)
They need recalibration after every 1-2 sorties for best results but they don't require input from GPS or other sensors. GPS synchronization largely eliminates the need for support staff to recalibrate. INS is incredibly accurate on its own, assuming pre-flight calibration.

Source: Worked on said GPS/INS systems in the military.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by hamiltonkibbe on Thursday June 09, 2016 @12:42AM (#11867599)
And what do you use to tell it where exactly it is during pre-flight calibration?

They "require" GPS input in the sense that if I handed you an INS that was initialized/calibrated with some precision (Oministar/RTK/P-code GPS/ whatever) reference but had been running in the trunk of my car (or dangling from the collar of a feral cat) for N hours/days, there's no way you'd fly a plane with it without initializing it with some sort of position referene.

(If you came up with "sit it on some previously surveyed datum, and you don't need GPS" on your own, you get an A)

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by DigitalJack on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:34AM (#11860045)
GPS already has an encrypted channel. It's a severe pain in the ass to work with computationally, so nobody does. Even the military.

It used to be that the clear channel was less accurate (even beyond the 'selective availability'), but signal theory got us to cm granularity without the computational expense of the military channel.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by spacehome on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:45PM (#11863556)
> I have no idea how you could provide that data in a secure way.

Just sign the signals with RSA. This depends on keeping the private key out of hostile hands, or allow key revocation and generation. But it's possible in theory.

Re:Planned GPS outages in southern California by fosco on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @11:09PM (#11859725)
I do not believe that drone crashing was am accident, wasn't there already a release of info showing that is how stuxnet was originally released?