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Re:TTIP Leaks by switch007 on Monday May 02, 2016 @10:59AM (#11611853)
Every internal combustion engine in history has and will spew poison in to the air. You just thought it was slightly less than it actually was.
Re:TTIP Leaks by ekianjo on Monday May 02, 2016 @11:13AM (#11612005)
Ever considered that internal combustion engines actually also saved lives (and made life possible in places where it was not) ? Let's not paint the world black and white.
Re:TTIP Leaks by cmelbye on Monday May 02, 2016 @11:24AM (#11612153)
Yes, but that has nothing to do with diesel fuel vs. others, which was the point of the previous two comments.
Re:TTIP Leaks by soperj on Monday May 02, 2016 @11:43AM (#11612380)
Honestly, where has it made life possible where it was not? Most places have been inhabited for eons, or settled before the invention of the internal combustion engine.
Re:TTIP Leaks by tacos on Monday May 02, 2016 @12:31PM (#11612896)
Honestly, please report back with a plan that gets the USA from 30 million people in 1860 to 300+ million people today without using the internal combustion engine.
Re:TTIP Leaks by gumby on Monday May 02, 2016 @12:49PM (#11613072)
or freed (cumulatively) billions from backbreaking labor.
Re:TTIP Leaks by odonnellryan on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:17PM (#11613963)
This is more important. Also, transporting people when they'd die/have horrible conditions otherwise.

I think it is a silly argument to say it helped people by helping them exist in the first place. It is a weird argument for a larger population, which probably isn't a great thing.

Re:TTIP Leaks by gumby on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:31PM (#11614115)
> larger population [...] probably isn't a great thing.

Julian Simon would have strongly disagreed and he put his money where his mouth was in his famous bets with Erlich: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Simon

Re:TTIP Leaks by odonnellryan on Monday May 02, 2016 @03:34PM (#11614767)
Yes, but he actually got lucky. Given the average of any 10-year period in the last 100 years I believe Simon would have been wrong.
Re:TTIP Leaks by jessaustin on Monday May 02, 2016 @09:22PM (#11617159)
It might not have been Simon's good luck, because Erlich's luck when it comes to prediction has been consistently bad.
Re:TTIP Leaks by gumby on Monday May 02, 2016 @11:48PM (#11617765)
Can you show some data online to back that up? I'm genuinely curious.
Re:TTIP Leaks by soperj on Monday May 02, 2016 @01:18PM (#11613395)
Yes, I was talking about that. But if you want an answer, many of the first cars were electric, if they went with the electric engine instead things wouldn't be exactly the same, but would have allowed the US to increase to 300+ million no problem.
Re:TTIP Leaks by tacos on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:23PM (#11614035)
I'm sure the electric planes, tanks and aircraft carriers would've made for some interesting historical footnotes in 1939. Assuming we hadn't already all starved due to the lack of food being produced by the electric farm tractors.
Re:TTIP Leaks by soperj on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:58PM (#11614398)
You may have starved. Everyone else would have continued to rely on the steam tractors that were in use well into the 30s. I'm sure most aircraft carriers would be powered the same way nuclear subs are powered now.
Re:TTIP Leaks by tacos on Monday May 02, 2016 @03:17PM (#11614593)
Ah yes. Wake up a few extra hours before sunrise to load crisp, clean-burning coal into a furnace. Then fiddle with dials waiting for it to come up to pressure without exploding. Then drag a cast iron boiler and tons of water (!) on tiny wheels across muddy fields, generating 15 horsepower. Built to scale!
Re:TTIP Leaks by nitrogen on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @01:34AM (#11618177)
generating 15 horsepower

You don't need a lot of horsepower to replace a horse. Quite literally, one would be enough.

Re:TTIP Leaks by tacos on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @08:42AM (#11620030)
In the spring you have a specific number of weeks to prep and plant. The amount of food you can produce is directly tied to the horsepower you can apply. It's also the difference between spending 15 hours a day in the field versus 8.
Re:TTIP Leaks by nitrogen on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @03:01PM (#11623285)
Yeah, I know, more power means you can process a bigger swath of the field faster with one pass. But I've driven a ~15hp tractor, and it could still do a lot more than you'd think.
Re:TTIP Leaks by soperj on Monday May 02, 2016 @04:59PM (#11615566)
You're clearly a waste of time. They were already doing that. Why? Because the ICE's weren't up to snuff.
Re:TTIP Leaks by harperlee on Monday May 02, 2016 @11:58AM (#11612531)
(replying to soperj's sibling post)

> Honestly, where has it made life possible where it was not?

Antarctica!

But yeah, I think the parent was just making a point :P

Re:TTIP Leaks by rorykoehler on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @04:02AM (#11618760)
Hard drugs make the pain go away but they also slowly kill you.
Re:TTIP Leaks by Grishnakh on Monday May 02, 2016 @11:28AM (#11612202)
It wasn't "slightly less", it was many, many times less. And there was no reason for it; it was entirely possible to engineer the vehicles to use the proper amount of AdBlue to keep the emissions within spec, they just wouldn't have been able to go 10,000 miles between refills.
Re:TTIP Leaks by Retric on Monday May 02, 2016 @11:39AM (#11612320)
Sure they could, they just needed a larger tank.
Re:TTIP Leaks by Grishnakh on Monday May 02, 2016 @11:44AM (#11612388)
Well yes, but the question is just how large. In a small car, there probably simply wasn't enough room without completely changing the chassis design. But really, WhyTF do you need a 10k mile service interval? No one expects to drive 10k miles without refilling the fuel tank. No one even expects to drive 10k miles without refilling the windshield washer fluid tank! Car companies don't expect people to drive 10k miles and then take their car to the dealership to put more windshield washer fluid in for them; any moron can refill that tank with a $1.50/gallon bottle from Walmart. But somehow people aren't competent to refill their AdBlue tank and need ridiculously-long service intervals? But they can be trusted to refill their fuel tanks with a highly-flammable and toxic substance (one with poisonous fumes, no less) every week or two?
Re:TTIP Leaks by PantaloonFlames on Monday May 02, 2016 @12:18PM (#11612763)
> In a small car, there probably simply wasn't enough room without completely changing the chassis design.

I am not an expert, but based on my understanding, the issue was not chassis design, but cost. http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/30/vw-diesel-fix-would-have-...

The reclaiming system would add to the cost of the vehicle, and operating it properly would also decrease fuel economy. Both would tend to decrease sales. So this was strictly about profit for VW.

> WhyTF do you need a 10k mile service interval

Because people want their cars to support their lifestyle, not vice versa.

> But somehow people aren't competent to refill their AdBlue tank and need ridiculously-long service intervals? But they can be trusted to refill their fuel tanks with a highly-flammable and toxic substance

The issue is not one of consumer trust. It's practicality. Gasoline filling stations are everywhere. Now: where can a consumer buy AdBlue or whatever the brand of urea is required by VW? No one wants a car that implies more complexity in their life.

Re:TTIP Leaks by Grishnakh on Monday May 02, 2016 @04:11PM (#11615132)
Your link provides zero details and makes zero sense. What costs $300? They don't say.

The issue, according to everything I've read, is that they have an AdBlue system but they don't inject nearly enough of it to keep emissions down.

>The reclaiming system would add to the cost of the vehicle, and operating it properly would also decrease fuel economy.

They have a reclaiming system (DEF injection). It does not decrease fuel economy. DEF injects urea into the exhaust stream to catalyze NOx emissions into N2 and H2O.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid

>Because people want their cars to support their lifestyle, not vice versa.

Too bad. If they can be bothered to refuel their fuel and washer fluid tanks, they can be bothered to refuel a third tank too.

>The issue is not one of consumer trust. It's practicality. Gasoline filling stations are everywhere. Now: where can a consumer buy AdBlue or whatever the brand of urea is required by VW? No one wants a car that implies more complexity in their life.

BS. Go read the article. Lots of truck stops have AdBlue dispensers at the fuel pumps now. If consumers don't want to refill a second tank periodically, then they shouldn't buy a diesel vehicle.

Re:TTIP Leaks by PantaloonFlames on Monday May 02, 2016 @12:13PM (#11612696)
> you just thought it was slightly less than it actually was.

(where "slightly" = 40x)

Re:TTIP Leaks by switch007 on Monday May 02, 2016 @01:00PM (#11613203)
Thanks. This site seems to indicate it was "up to" "nearly" 40x.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/internation...

An EU perspective (and EU rules) http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/21/all-top-sell... has results no where near 40x.

None of that of course is "slightly less", but that wasn't my point.