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Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by _Codemonkeyism on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @04:18AM (#11578623)
Basically there are two definitions of poverty with two crowds of followers.

1. People are poor if they can't afford (basic) things. People are very poor if they go hungry to bed.

2. People are poor if they earn less [1] than the average (not median) household. From the article "The report looked at the gap between the income of the poorest Japanese families with children and the average household income."

When does the poverty rate rise in 1. and 2.?

1. When peoples (real) income decreases (e.g. they lose jobs) and they can't afford (basic) things they could afford 10 years before. Or prices are rising to the same effect. The margin between income and costs gets smaller.

2. When some people get a lot richer (e.g. the "1%") then the income average rises and the poverty rate rises, although "poor" people might also have higher income or can afford more things than 10 years before (because of cheaper food, clothes, phone costs, energy they have more "disposable income").

I wish we would label these two types of poverty differently to have better discussions.

[1] EDIT: a certain percentage

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by thaumasiotes on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @05:12AM (#11578823)
> People are poor if they earn less than the average (not median) household. From the article "The report looked at the gap between the income of the poorest Japanese families with children and the average household income."

And I thought the US move to define the poverty line as the 40th percentile of income (or something lower; I don't remember this too well) was absurd. The average household income is, by necessity, well above the 50th percentile everywhere. There is no one seriously advocating that over 50% of every country's population is living in poverty.

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by mafribe on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @06:05AM (#11579068)

   the poverty line as the 40th percentile 
   of income [...] was absurd.
It's best understood not as a honest attempt at understanding poverty, but as a political manoeuvre.

In the past (19th century and before), the socialist/communist tradition had a real point in that large swathes of the population were poor in an absolute sense (e.g. going hungry, cold, no adequate health-care, pension etc). The socialist/communist tradition was in some sense about abolishing absolute poverty (whether the proposed methods were helpful or not is another discussion). If you read e.g. the communist manifesto [1], that is clear. Most of socialist/communist politics centered around politicising and radicalising the absolute poor with a view towards taking them out of absolute poverty.

However, modern industrialised society has (simplifying a bit) abolished absolute poverty.

This leaves socialist/communist politics in a conundrum: how to continue to politicise/radicalise people to become followers. The concept of relative poverty is the answer: all the old political tools can be reused by changing what is meant by poverty.

[1] https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-m...

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by gozur88 on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @06:12AM (#11579103)
It actually makes less sense than that. The poverty line in the US was calculated one year based on some percentage of the median wage. Don't remember what year that was. But since then they just keep adjusting it by the CPI.
Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by Malarkey73 on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @06:39AM (#11579228)
Firstly the price of beans, CPUs and clothes may have fallen - but the price of education, healthcare, energy and especially housing have not fallen. They take up more and more of disposable income - and it's hard to argue that they are luxuries.

Second "when some people get a lot richer" this especially pushes up the cost of housing (arguably education too) a rationed good. The experience here in the UK is that more and more people are renting from those who have the money to corner the housing market. A vicious cycle of money being redistributed upwards.

No doubt type 1 and type 2 poverty are linked.

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by mac01021 on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @05:06PM (#11584568)
> the price of beans, CPUs and clothes may have fallen - but the price of education, healthcare, energy and especially housing have not fallen

Over what time period do you mean? I'm pretty sure just about everything has a lower cost than it did 50 years ago, with the exception of real estate in neighborhoods where the population density has soared. If you don't insist on living in one of those neighborhoods, you can life that is better than what you'd have had in 1965 in every respect and spend less time working to support that lifestyle than you would have spent at that time for the inferior quality of life.

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by artumi-richard on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @04:31AM (#11578670)
I think the two labels are "absolute poverty" and "relative poverty"
Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by _Codemonkeyism on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @04:37AM (#11578687)
I agree this could be the labels, but as the article does never mention 'relative' IMHO these types of poverty are not labeled.
Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by ap22213 on Thursday April 28, 2016 @01:36AM (#11586729)
I'm curious as to why you think such a distinction would improve discussions. To me, it seems like an arbitrary distinction to make.

But, I suppose it begs a question of why we discuss poverty, at all? I presume it's because some of us don't like to see suffering or despair. Or, we don't like some people being left out of prosperity. Or, are there other reasons?

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by GreaterFool on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @04:27AM (#11578659)
From what I've seen in USA and Japan I think USA is mostly 1 and Japan is mostly 2.