Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by madaxe_again on Thursday April 21, 2016 @05:57AM
(#11540732)
It's the same sort of thinking that used to say "the African does not truly think or feel, he simply exhibits reflex responses that can give the appearance of thinking and feeling". Given what we know of cetaceans their classification as non-human persons seems fair, and future generations may look at our treatment of cetaceans today as dimly as we now do early 20th century whaling.
Assuming that only humans are sentient is a arrogant as assuming only the white man is sentient.
On the note of how they communicate - I wonder if anyone has considered sonar holography - I.e. The clicks and whistles aren't words per se but are interpreted visually, as an actual sonar reflection off an actual object would be. I'm trying to find the paper but I seem to recall some research in which they realised a dolphin was mimicking the sonar echo of an object, with startling accuracy.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by srean on Thursday April 21, 2016 @07:32AM
(#11541182)
I thoroughly agree with you. This "denial due to lack of undeniable evidence" has been one of my pet annoyances in discussions on this topic. I am all for skepticism, it is a fundamental pillar of science. What bugs me is the application of different standards when discussing the question "are humans sentient/intelligent" vs "are dolphins (elephants, apes, etc) sentient/intelligent". For both the cases we can only observe their external behavior, and I think all we can measure is whether that external behavior is consistent with our hypothesis. Sure, there are other hypothesis that explains the same behavior, the fault lies in choosing a less charitable hypothesis for animals but a more charitable one for humans.
Till better methods are discovered, I think a Turing test analogue is the best we can do.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by s_kilk on Thursday April 21, 2016 @06:44AM
(#11540922)
> On the note of how they communicate - I wonder if anyone has considered sonar holography - I.e. The clicks and whistles aren't words per se but are interpreted visually, as an actual sonar reflection off an actual object would be. I'm trying to find the paper but I seem to recall some research in which they realised a dolphin was mimicking the sonar echo of an object, with startling accuracy.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by augustnagro on Thursday April 21, 2016 @07:12AM
(#11541062)
Definition of anthropomorphism (noun): "the attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god, animal, or object.
"
A common example of anthropomorphism is in voles (and other rodents). [1,2] Very long ago, scientists noticed that bank vole pups frequently cry when their mother leaves the nest. The scientists assumed that the pups were afraid, and missed their parent. Eventually, it was discovered that the absence of their mother drops the temperature of the underground nest, and that the pups cries are actually a mechanism to generate heat. When scientists took their mother away, but increased the heat of their den to normal levels, the pups did not cry. The animals were not communicating or displaying anything resembling "human" emotion, but were innately responding to environmental stress.
No matter how much we want to believe that animals are sentient, have emotions, and communicate to each other via language, science indicates that's just not the case. In fact, there have been numerous studies that indicate anthropomorphism is a byproduct of our complex social structure.
Nice job bringing racism into a discussion about dolphin vocalizations, by the way.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by tzs on Thursday April 21, 2016 @08:59AM
(#11541733)
> No matter how much we want to believe that animals are sentient, have emotions, and communicate to each other via language, science indicates that's just not the case.
That's an overstatement. All you can really conclude is that science cannot say whether or not any non-humans are sentient.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by 7952 on Thursday April 21, 2016 @06:57PM
(#11545922)
Surely sentience is a philosophical concept, I am sceptical that science can be applied as directly as you suggest.
I agree that human characteristics are sometimes falsely assigned to animals. But that doesn't mean that human characteristics can only ever exist in humans. If a crow exhibits theory of mind, it just suggests that humans are not as unusual as previously thought. It does not mean that we are assigning the full philosophical implications of human sentience to that animal. In fact science could not possibly do that and still be science.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by cmdrfred on Thursday April 21, 2016 @11:47AM
(#11543024)
How do we know that human infants don't respond that same way, for the same reason? Perhaps the voles reaction to heat signals a more sophisticated understanding in comparison to the child who cries regardless of temperature.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by true_religion on Friday April 22, 2016 @10:26AM
(#11549428)
> How do we know that human infants don't respond that same way, for the same reason?
Infants are known to lack forward-planning, object permanence, and many many other indications of reasoning. I don't think it'd be wrong to say that they behave quite like little finite state machines.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by lawpoop on Friday April 22, 2016 @10:24AM
(#11549415)
This study doesn't even make sense. How does crying generate heat? It takes an awful lot of physical movement to generate any measurable about of heat. There's no way they generated enough sonic energy to make a measurable change in temperature.
This is not evidence that the crying act was just to generate heat. Not that it's evidence that they missed their mom, but it's neither evidence for the heat theory.
You can comfort a crying child with a blanket; maybe all human distress is just a need for a blankie?
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by cperciva on Thursday April 21, 2016 @06:45AM
(#11540926)
It's the same sort of thinking that used to say "the African does not truly think or feel, he simply exhibits reflex responses that can give the appearance of thinking and feeling".
Or, perhaps, "the Computer does not truly think or feel, it simply follows numerical algorithms that can give the appearance of thinking and feeling"?
(Obviously I'm not attempting to compare the intellect of Africans and that of computers; just to make the point that it's really hard to describe what is going on inside someone or something else's mind, when we don't even have clear definitions for what it means to "think" or "feel".)
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by madaxe_again on Thursday April 21, 2016 @07:08AM
(#11541039)
Sure, although the reason I raised it in the context of Africans is that not so long ago this was used as a justification for all sorts of horrors - any Explorer worth their salt would keep a stuffed pygmy as a coat rack - I mean, "it's" not really sentient, its family only gave the appearance of being distraught when you "culled" it. And, of course, slavery and all that begat.
Ota Benga is a nice (not so nice) case study in the impact of this sort of thinking.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by thaumasiotes on Thursday April 21, 2016 @07:40AM
(#11541223)
> Turing describes a number of objections that people are inclined to raise to the possibility of AI. One, which he calls the "Heads in the Sand" objection, he characterises thus: "The consequences of machines thinking would be too dreadful. Let us hope and believe that they cannot do so." It is, he says, particularly prevalent among intellectual people, since they most value the power of thinking. Turing notes that this position needs no refuting: "Consolation would be more appropriate." Today the Heads in the Sand objection is alive and well.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by cperciva on Thursday April 21, 2016 @07:50AM
(#11541290)
My favourite answer is that the question of machines thinking -- and in this context, dolphins thinking -- is about as meaningful as the question of whether submarines swim: Not the same way as we do, but if they get the same result does the mechanism really matter?
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by meric on Thursday April 21, 2016 @10:31PM
(#11546704)
I think machines would have to have awareness and experience before we can say they think like us.
We are extremely aware of our computers - every pixel it emanates from the screen, every bounce on the keyboard, the temperature, it's hum. With our awareness we build a model of the computer, we can anticipate and manipulate it's future states. The computer on the other hand, senses only touches on its keyboard, the power feeding to it from the power socket, the light entering its camera, the bits coming through on it's wifi. Sure, this information are enough to build some sort of model of the world, but it does not currently do that. Our computers do not marshal all of it's sensory experience into a coherent whole, and therefore remains in unawareness, cannot anticipate and cannot manipulate the world around it informed by its own experience, it acts and thinks like the detached tail of a lizard.
Nonetheless, I do think, one day, computers will think and be aware.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by KingMob on Thursday April 21, 2016 @11:53AM
(#11543068)
Former neuroscientist here. In grad school, I TAed for one of the profs who tried (and eventually renounced) to teach Nim Chimpsky language. I am well-versed in this.
For starters, we need to make a clear distinction between communication and language. Many animals communicate information to each other. But the hallmark of language is flexibility; the existence of grammar allows us to communicate novel sentences we have never spoken and others have never heard in a way that is clearly impossible with conditioning.
Second, anthropomorphism is a big problem; It's why the field ultimately rejected the project to teach chimps language, and why they are dubious about language in parrots and dolphins. The evidence was, and is, relatively weak. Many researchers heard what seemed like language from chimps (e.g., Washoe's infamous "water bird" for swan), but when they analyzed Nim's total corpus, the connection between utterance and meaning vanished.
Other than a few holdouts, the field largely concluded that all the chimp behavior observed could be just as easily explained with conditioning (utter that in this circumstance, get a reward, if no reward, try a new utterance, etc).
Regarding the dolphins, I looked at the abstract of the original paper. Nowhere do they use the word "language", and the lead scientist also says they don't know if it's language. It's not clear why the Guardian article's author wants to argue for more.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by mannykannot on Thursday April 21, 2016 @11:33PM
(#11546903)
If dolphins had a human-like facility for language, I imagine some captive dolphins would have figured out (probably through a discussion among themselves) that humans also have language, and that it would be greatly beneficial if they could communicate with humans. With both parties sharing this goal, I don't think it would take long.
On the other hand, I don't suppose human language emerged fully-formed (I don't think there is much evidence for Chomsky's views on this), and these pre- or proto-language skills may provide a lot of insight into its evolution.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by spatulan on Thursday April 21, 2016 @05:54AM
(#11540716)
We might be looking for sentences and words that just aren't there. Dolphins see with sound, so maybe all those clicks and whistles are their way of sketching images for each other.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by suvelx on Thursday April 21, 2016 @06:53AM
(#11540957)
Perhaps to test this, you could have two sets of identical statues.
Two dolphins need to interact with the matching statues together to get food.
If you followed the 'five monkeys and a ladder with a banana' experiment and found two dolphins who worked it out. Replace one with another. Presumably one will try and teach the other.
With enough dolphins and statues, you might be able to use the similar methods you'd use to break simple cryptography to work out what part of the communication is about the statue.
Or, you'll find out every dolphin talks to every other dolphin differently. And then and then the government bans dolphins out of fear of being unable to intercept dolphin based communications.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by jack9 on Friday April 22, 2016 @01:45AM
(#11547283)
> Presumably one will try and teach the other.
IIRC this has already been tried and demonstrated to happen. This is the first thing that google came up with, but I'm sure Scientific American has also covered the teaching behavior.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by spatulan on Thursday April 21, 2016 @06:22AM
(#11540826)
There probably isn't enough data to render a full image, but how many lines do we need to draw to give the impression of a person, or a tree? Surprisingly few. Couldn't the same apply to a sonar image?
It's just an idea. I'm not saying its true, just that its an interesting possibility.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by thaumasiotes on Saturday April 23, 2016 @06:41AM
(#11554988)
I'm aware, but you need special training before you can recognize that as a person. 木 is "wood" in the modern day; does 树 really make you think "that looks like a tree"?
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by inimino on Saturday April 23, 2016 @08:13AM
(#11555227)
So perhaps any visual representation of meaning would require shared context to interpret, and would then inevitably become symbolic rather than directly representational.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by thaumasiotes on Sunday April 24, 2016 @01:12AM
(#11558634)
I don't understand what you're trying to say here, but e.g. Michelangelo's David is widely recognized as representing a person, and no shared context is required for that.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by aaron695 on Thursday April 21, 2016 @10:04AM
(#11542194)
That fact it mentions Koko (A great example of Facilitated Communication) shows they have no real concern for science on the subject.
It's the one who "cried" when Robin Williams died, you can't make this stuff up (1)
But the original research looks interesting, but yes silly humans finding patterns to prove things they want to believe does not make science. Hence why intelligent people still say, there's no evidence yet it's language.
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by mac01021 on Thursday April 21, 2016 @04:57PM
(#11545293)
Something I've always wondered about dolphins:
They are widely regarded as ranking among the most intelligent animals. At the very least, they seem to be much more trainable than a wide variety of other mammals.
But why? What about their lifestyle, diet, hunting methods, etc requires cognitive ability greater than that of (say) a shark or an antelope?
Re:These dolphins talk to each other. Why do we insist it is...
by mac01021 on Friday April 22, 2016 @04:57PM
(#11552509)
Noone would ask this question about humans. Humans use tools, coordinate their activity by communicating detailed questions, statements, and commands, and contrive elaborate schemes for altering their environments to be more favorable. The ability to do these things is accepted without controversy as being essential to their success as a species.
But dolphins: what do they do in their natural environment that utilizes such intelligence? If they just swim around eating fish and mating, then they need not be any smarter than sharks, which do basically the same thing.
Assuming that only humans are sentient is a arrogant as assuming only the white man is sentient.
On the note of how they communicate - I wonder if anyone has considered sonar holography - I.e. The clicks and whistles aren't words per se but are interpreted visually, as an actual sonar reflection off an actual object would be. I'm trying to find the paper but I seem to recall some research in which they realised a dolphin was mimicking the sonar echo of an object, with startling accuracy.
Till better methods are discovered, I think a Turing test analogue is the best we can do.
Do you mean something like this?
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/this-picture-reveals-how-dol...
The really interesting question then becomes "is it always literal, or do they have abstract imagery too?".
If it's the latter, that is, in my admittedly inexpert opinion, a slam dunk for dolphin sentience - abstract symbolism allows art.
A common example of anthropomorphism is in voles (and other rodents). [1,2] Very long ago, scientists noticed that bank vole pups frequently cry when their mother leaves the nest. The scientists assumed that the pups were afraid, and missed their parent. Eventually, it was discovered that the absence of their mother drops the temperature of the underground nest, and that the pups cries are actually a mechanism to generate heat. When scientists took their mother away, but increased the heat of their den to normal levels, the pups did not cry. The animals were not communicating or displaying anything resembling "human" emotion, but were innately responding to environmental stress.
No matter how much we want to believe that animals are sentient, have emotions, and communicate to each other via language, science indicates that's just not the case. In fact, there have been numerous studies that indicate anthropomorphism is a byproduct of our complex social structure.
Nice job bringing racism into a discussion about dolphin vocalizations, by the way.
Then again, perhaps you are just a well trained markov chain, and not actually a person.
That's an overstatement. All you can really conclude is that science cannot say whether or not any non-humans are sentient.
I agree that human characteristics are sometimes falsely assigned to animals. But that doesn't mean that human characteristics can only ever exist in humans. If a crow exhibits theory of mind, it just suggests that humans are not as unusual as previously thought. It does not mean that we are assigning the full philosophical implications of human sentience to that animal. In fact science could not possibly do that and still be science.
Infants are known to lack forward-planning, object permanence, and many many other indications of reasoning. I don't think it'd be wrong to say that they behave quite like little finite state machines.
Human crying as any strenous activity generates heat.
This is not evidence that the crying act was just to generate heat. Not that it's evidence that they missed their mom, but it's neither evidence for the heat theory.
You can comfort a crying child with a blanket; maybe all human distress is just a need for a blankie?
Or, perhaps, "the Computer does not truly think or feel, it simply follows numerical algorithms that can give the appearance of thinking and feeling"?
(Obviously I'm not attempting to compare the intellect of Africans and that of computers; just to make the point that it's really hard to describe what is going on inside someone or something else's mind, when we don't even have clear definitions for what it means to "think" or "feel".)
Ota Benga is a nice (not so nice) case study in the impact of this sort of thinking.
(Sourced from https://plus.maths.org/content/computers-ltd ; the paper of Turing's can be read at http://web.cs.ucla.edu/~rosen/161/turing_paper.html )
We are extremely aware of our computers - every pixel it emanates from the screen, every bounce on the keyboard, the temperature, it's hum. With our awareness we build a model of the computer, we can anticipate and manipulate it's future states. The computer on the other hand, senses only touches on its keyboard, the power feeding to it from the power socket, the light entering its camera, the bits coming through on it's wifi. Sure, this information are enough to build some sort of model of the world, but it does not currently do that. Our computers do not marshal all of it's sensory experience into a coherent whole, and therefore remains in unawareness, cannot anticipate and cannot manipulate the world around it informed by its own experience, it acts and thinks like the detached tail of a lizard.
Nonetheless, I do think, one day, computers will think and be aware.
For starters, we need to make a clear distinction between communication and language. Many animals communicate information to each other. But the hallmark of language is flexibility; the existence of grammar allows us to communicate novel sentences we have never spoken and others have never heard in a way that is clearly impossible with conditioning.
Second, anthropomorphism is a big problem; It's why the field ultimately rejected the project to teach chimps language, and why they are dubious about language in parrots and dolphins. The evidence was, and is, relatively weak. Many researchers heard what seemed like language from chimps (e.g., Washoe's infamous "water bird" for swan), but when they analyzed Nim's total corpus, the connection between utterance and meaning vanished.
Other than a few holdouts, the field largely concluded that all the chimp behavior observed could be just as easily explained with conditioning (utter that in this circumstance, get a reward, if no reward, try a new utterance, etc).
Regarding the dolphins, I looked at the abstract of the original paper. Nowhere do they use the word "language", and the lead scientist also says they don't know if it's language. It's not clear why the Guardian article's author wants to argue for more.
It's pretty clear why - sensationalism, as always.
On the other hand, I don't suppose human language emerged fully-formed (I don't think there is much evidence for Chomsky's views on this), and these pre- or proto-language skills may provide a lot of insight into its evolution.
Seems like something machine learning could help with.
Of course it may turn out it's impossible to translate between human and dolphin languages in a meaningful way.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129624-300-dolphin-...
Two dolphins need to interact with the matching statues together to get food.
If you followed the 'five monkeys and a ladder with a banana' experiment and found two dolphins who worked it out. Replace one with another. Presumably one will try and teach the other.
With enough dolphins and statues, you might be able to use the similar methods you'd use to break simple cryptography to work out what part of the communication is about the statue.
Or, you'll find out every dolphin talks to every other dolphin differently. And then and then the government bans dolphins out of fear of being unable to intercept dolphin based communications.
IIRC this has already been tried and demonstrated to happen. This is the first thing that google came up with, but I'm sure Scientific American has also covered the teaching behavior.
http://www.earthintransition.org/2011/09/dolphins-teach-each...
It's just an idea. I'm not saying its true, just that its an interesting possibility.
Context sensitive, but yes, surprisingly few.
大 is three lines.
木 is four.
It's the one who "cried" when Robin Williams died, you can't make this stuff up (1)
But the original research looks interesting, but yes silly humans finding patterns to prove things they want to believe does not make science. Hence why intelligent people still say, there's no evidence yet it's language.
(1) https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/koko-the-gorilla-cries-over-robi...
They are widely regarded as ranking among the most intelligent animals. At the very least, they seem to be much more trainable than a wide variety of other mammals.
But why? What about their lifestyle, diet, hunting methods, etc requires cognitive ability greater than that of (say) a shark or an antelope?
But dolphins: what do they do in their natural environment that utilizes such intelligence? If they just swim around eating fish and mating, then they need not be any smarter than sharks, which do basically the same thing.