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Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by ranci on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @04:56PM (#11530338)
If they can't sell computers in the digital age where software has taken over everything, you can think whatever you want but that does reflect poorly on the economy. Yes, many factors are at play. It is still a terrible sign.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by osweiller on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @05:14PM (#11530487)
More computers are being sold than ever before. The market is absolutely saturated with computing devices. And aside from the intense competition Intel is facing, they're suffering the same issue that the GPU makers face -- I once upgraded yearly because the gains made it worthwhile. Now I upgrade pretty much only when something fails.

It is absolutely picking a narrative.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by CydeWeys on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:16PM (#11531232)
Intel screwed up and didn't become a major player in the mobile market. They could have, because they are still the world's best chip maker, but they didn't. The mobile market is experiencing the most growth and also the shortest product lifetimes. I still get a new phone every 1-2 years because the upgrades are worth it, but my laptop needs upgrades less often, and my desktop less often than that. Mobile phone processors today are where desktop processors were a decade and a half ago in terms of growth potential.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by ansible on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @04:09AM (#11532934)
Intel has tried, and failed, and tried again in the mobile segment.

They sold off their ARM processors to Marvell. They've made various forays into wireless, though WiMAX didn't work out so well for them.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by majewsky on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @03:54AM (#11532895)
> I still get a new phone every 1-2 years because the upgrades are worth it

Really? About the only reason why I'm getting a new phone every so often is when the old one stops being updated. (My Nexus 4 lasted 3 years, and it would have done another year.)

Planned obsolescence, if you want.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by CydeWeys on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @11:55AM (#11535332)
The phone market is still rapidly evolving. For instance, I have a Nexus 5X right now. The fingerprint scanner on it alone is worth it. It was an afterthought to me when I got the phone, but now it's the single most important feature on the phone to me. The camera is also better than anything phone camera I've had before.

Also, I play some games on my phone, and having better hardware helps a lot with that.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by sireat on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @02:01PM (#11536366)
What is so useful about a fingerprint scanner?

I could see how infrared sensor like in that new Caterpillar phone could come in useful especially if you are in a building trade, but fingerprint scanner?

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by CydeWeys on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @03:43PM (#11537165)
You know that it's used for unlocking the phone, right? It's nothing like the use case you're describing.

You have to get a phone with one and use it for a week or so until its use becomes routine to really understand how big of a game changer it is. I subconsciously unlock my phone now every time I pick it up. It's amazing. Every day it saves me probably 60 seconds in total typing in stupid PINs, and those savings add up real quickly.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by revelation on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @06:11AM (#11533318)
I'm still using my Nexus 4, that thing has pretty much already set the "good enough" bar we've come to reference for why PC sales are tanking. The only problem is a lack of security updates, but we can't blame the hardware for that.

Incidentally I had a HTC Desire HD before and that became unusable on newer versions, as is the Nexus 7 now. These two clearly didn't have the good enough hardware specs.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by ranci on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @05:30PM (#11530623)
Is half of college graduates being unemployed or working a min wage job picking a narrative too? Is pointing out that wages are completely stagnant and not rising picking a narrative too? What information would you need to receive to admit the economy is not healthy?
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by pmalynin on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @06:19PM (#11530952)
Yes, don't go studying 17th Romantic Literature expecting a job.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by ant6n on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:11PM (#11531214)
Romanticism is a 19th century thing.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by maaku on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:17PM (#11531236)
Obviously that's not what he studied in college.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by eru on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:26PM (#11531290)
Might be the joke?
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by Ericson2314 on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @09:07PM (#11531646)
Nah, that would be too clever.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by ranci on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @01:17PM (#11535993)
I said 50% of graduates are min wage or unemployed. Not the 1% who majored in romantic literature. You also didn't address the fact that wages paid to employees are completely stagnant.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by pmalynin on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @01:30PM (#11536098)
I think the point went over your head. It is not the systems fault that a person that chooses to graduate in a non marketable field does not have a job, e.g. a person who graduates in Romantic Literature. Everyone who graduated cs that I know has no trouble finding a job. One that is not at McBurger.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by cik2e on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @03:04PM (#11536865)
Where are you getting this 50% number from?

http://www.epi.org/publication/the-class-of-2015/ For young college graduates, the unemployment rate is currently 7.2 percent (compared with 5.5 percent in 2007), and the underemployment rate is 14.9 percent (compared with 9.6 percent in 2007).

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by fokov on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @05:41PM (#11530700)
Anecdote, I was an avid gamer that would upgrade whenever the price/performance was good enough for my budget. However, I bought almost top tier stuff back in 2008 and haven't upgraded the core of my system since. I don't game like I used to, but it still does everything I need it to do. I used to do yearly-ish new builds as well.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by noir_lord on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @06:35PM (#11531025)
Me as well, I built an i5-2500K system backend 2010(ish), it's still my main home desktop, 32GB RAM and an SSD and it's as fast as the machine at work that is two generations newer (or more correct it's imperceptibly slower).

Things have really levelled out for average loads even developer loads (mostly do web dev, run vagrant machines that kind of thing).

I can't see me upgrading til this thing dies tbh.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by BuckRogers on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @11:38PM (#11532103)
Same boat. I built in 2009 and have a Q9450@3Ghz and a Radeon 5870 with 8GB RAM and a one-time top of the line Intel 160GB X25-M SSD. Still works great. There's only 1 thing I don't like about it, with 3 monitor outputs enabled the idle temp on the GPU is pretty hot (~86C). I'm hoping a newer machine will bring that down. Single output it's about 57C, so a huge difference.

But I got tired of 190F slowly being pumped out of my case and into the room. Its replacement is finally on the way. I preordered Intel's Skull Canyon NUC[0]. Got 32GB of DDR4-2800Mhz memory and a 512GB Samsung 950 Pro PCIE/NVME M.2 SSD. I'll be dailychaining a single DisplayPort cable to 3 new LCDs as well.

Pretty huge leap in performance. It just made sense to stop building new computers and jump on the NUC bandwagon. All I do is development, League of Legends and the rare CSGo. The ~Geforce 750 performance levels that NUC will provide will be enough. The inclusion of the Thunderbolt3 port for an external GPU case really put my mind at ease. Not that I intend to utilize it, but I'm glad it's there. Same upgradability as any other machine. SSD/RAM/GPU. The CPU is soldered, but I never once replaced a CPU after building a computer anyway. Other than the few Athlons I killed from overclocking in ~2001.

Probably upgrade more often if these new gaming NUCs are as good as I think they'll be. Next upgrade for me will be 10nm + Thunderbolt4 NUC. And the final perk, all-Intel so it'll work great with any Linux distro natively. That's worth a lot to me.

Unless Intel failed hard with this thing, which I highly doubt.. it's Intel.. I'm all-in on NUCs from here on out.

[0]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856102...

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by scholia on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:52PM (#11531399)
> Me as well, I built an i5-2500K system backend 2010(ish), it's still my main home desktop

Good pick: it's still one of the faster chips around. However, it's TDP is 95W, which is fine for a desktop. Since then, Intel has been concentrating on delivering the same (or, often, much less) speed with lower TDP ratings.

These address the market need for thin, high-priced laptops -- preferably without fans -- that you can use in Starbucks.

You could "upgrade" to a new Intel Core i7-6600U that's actually slower than your i5-2500K but has a TDP of only 15W.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by tostitos1979 on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:10PM (#11531204)
What you folks are saying is mostly true. VR and 4K are the drivers for a whole new compute cycle in the home. I think the current core counts for Xeon are good enough for cloud (by this I mean that I think CPU isn't the bottleneck for the average EC2, Google Compute, Azure instance). Any one care to comment?
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by noir_lord on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:20PM (#11531258)
In the sense of VR/4K the CPU is way less important than the GPU and we still have some headroom on those even with existing process, what will be interesting is when everyone else's process catches up with where Intel is now, they've generally stayed out in front of everyone else for a long time (except AMD for a spell).

I'm really looking forwards to VR if it catches on though, having an insanely high resolution headset so I can dump multiple monitors for programming is a big win, combine that with something that has the portability/form factor of a MS Book/Macbook Pro and you'd be able to program as capably from a hotel room as at your desk at home/work.

That would be the biggest shift in my work habits since I went from Windows to Linux in the late 90's.

Also I think once everyone can get down to the same size as intel we might start seeing more exotic architectures, Intel has often won with the "with enough thrust a brick will fly" approach to engineering, it doesn't matter if your chip is clock for clock more efficient if Intel is operating at a level where they can put 5 times as many transistors down in the same unit area and ramp the clock speed way up.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by tostitos1979 on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:34PM (#11531324)
Good point. Nvidia seems like the exciting company in this regard. I have a bad feeling they're going to tumble because the latest announcements related to Pascal have focused on deep learning instead of 4K for consumers. As far as I know, they haven't even announced their consumer Pascal cards yet. The rumor I've read online is announcements in June.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by mac01021 on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @08:36PM (#11531556)
What would it mean for Nvidia to focus on 4k? Do the new screen resolutions require architectural innovations in the GPU? (Honest question. I'm not a graphics engineer)
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by noir_lord on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @09:04PM (#11531637)
Me either so take this with a pinch of salt.

Mostly it's about shuttling around 4 times as much memory for each screen as well as 4 times as much processing.

1920x1080 has ~ 2 million pixels. 3840x2160 has ~ 8 million pixels.

Internally iirc this is often done as vectors before been rasterised out and having various filters and shaders applied but that step requires that you store multiple buffers etc, same reason a card that will play a game just comfortably at 1024x768 will run away crying at 1920x1080 I guess.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by mac01021 on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @08:02AM (#11533723)
I can see how higher resolutions will require the GPU to have more memory or more FLOPS or both. I guess my question is, how, if at all, are the improvements required to support 4K different from improvements that target something like deep learning performance?
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by digi_owl on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:53PM (#11531405)
Not quite about that last part. Clock rates have been more or less stationary over the last decade or so. What Intel has been focusing on for some time is cache, and how to practically always have the right data in the cache at the right time. but yes, having more transistors to work with do allow them to pack more cache onto the die.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by noir_lord on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @08:40PM (#11531573)
Yeah that wasn't perhaps very clear, I meant historically they ramped the clock up (back in the P4 days).
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by digi_owl on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @06:00PM (#11538071)
And ran into a brick wall, iirc.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by eru on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:28PM (#11531297)
We still need more CPU in the cloud. There's an almost unlimited appetite; and we still often look for optimizations to our program that reduce CPU load. (At least at Google. Not sure how much I am allowed to say in more detail, though..)
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by tostitos1979 on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:35PM (#11531330)
Touche. I've also been involved in building clouds but ours was focused on customers building web-apps. Those are probably not compute bound. I can see why data processing workloads would need more CPU.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by justin66 on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @09:16PM (#11531672)
> VR and 4K are the drivers for a whole new compute cycle in the home.

My i7 desktop will be four years old in June. I've done the research and all I need to run the Oculus or HTC Vive (or the upcoming games that look good) is a graphics card upgrade.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by z3t4 on Thursday April 21, 2016 @09:05AM (#11541769)
As a software developer I constantly find myself optimizing and scaling across CPU's. Sure those programs I optimized 10 years ago run blazingly fast now. But as computers got faster the possibilities and expectations also increased.

I would like to compare CPU's with roads: Roads increase traffic, not the other way around. So if you make a faster CPU, the demand for a faster CPU increases.

So if Intel stops making faster CPU's, the demand will (unexpectedly) go down.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by codeonfire on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @10:49PM (#11531934)
Good point except facebook is targeting 6k per eye. People are definitely going to buy hardware, but maybe not in huge numbers.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by intrasight on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @08:38PM (#11531566)
That's what I've got as well. I'll probably build a new machine (actually, I'll just buy a NUC) this Spring. Another big factor in not upgrading is the effort involved in setting up a new Windows machine. I'm sure I'm in for at least 30 hours on that front.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by taneq on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @08:42PM (#11531580)
That's precisely the "issue", and it's only a problem if you make it a problem. The early-adopter and rapid-early-development churn is slowing down because processor technology is maturing and has reached full market penetration, so the market for new devices is shrinking. It's like a hotdog stand calling it a "market crash" when they've sold everyone a hotdog and nobody's hungry after lunchtime.

The automotive industry faced the same issue a long time ago, and their solution was to turn cars into a fashion statement. You no longer upgrade your car because your old one is worn out, you upgrade to signal your wealth through conspicuous consumption. The mobile phone market is somewhat the same way. The desktop PC market? Not so much.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by floatrock on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @09:06PM (#11531644)
Ain't that a bit sad, all that energy and pollution going towards planned obsolescence so that he with the shiniest toys wins?

There is some legitimate utility derived from novelty -- I don't want to be walking around in my grandfather's battered rags either -- but I wonder if some day we can shift towards something more sustainable and less paying to dig consumerist holes then paying again to fill them back in.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by taneq on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @09:27PM (#11531707)
Yeah, I never went in for replacing things just for the 'new car smell'. That's probably why I drive a nearly-30-year-old car. :)

The point about your grandad's battered rags is that they're battered rags, though, not that they're old. His good leather jacket is probably still perfectly serviceable today.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by sjg007 on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @01:55AM (#11532503)
My leather jacket is 20 years old and in great shape.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by tomc1985 on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @06:09PM (#11530888)
Maybe they should adjust their business to account for this new cycle of usage, and not fight it
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by johntb86 on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @06:54PM (#11531125)
That's why they're cutting 11% of their workforce.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by tostitos1979 on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:12PM (#11531216)
I must say, I'm surprised by how much their workforce swelled. Why did their workforce rise so much after 2009? Was this in the Bay area? Did this rise bring in additional revenue/create new business lines?
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by scholia on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:56PM (#11531414)
One of the things mentioned in the story is that the "period of [staff] growth includes its two largest acquisitions, McAfee in 2011 and Altera last year".

I'd assume these acquisitions added to revenues.....

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by Spooky23 on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @05:29PM (#11530613)
The PC isn't going anywhere, but the need to update every 30 months has gone away.

It's a sign of market maturity. Intel shouldn't be trading at a premium if it's selling a highly predictable, stable product to a consolidating marketplace.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by marshray on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @02:12AM (#11532572)
Intel has always sold predictable, stable products. But the rate of increase in the core value delivered by their primary product line has slowed dramatically.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by msbarnett on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @05:28PM (#11530602)
Computing devices are selling like hotcakes, far moreso than ever before.

But most of them are full of ARM chips fab'd by companies not named Intel.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by tmptmp on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @11:29PM (#11532067)
>>Computing devices

hmm... only if I kid myself that the mobile phones (even the smart ones) are actually computing devices on which "I can compute whatever I wish to compute AND the way I can compute on a PC". Most of the ARM devices sold are NOT computing devices for the general person who purchases them.

It reminds me the fallacy of calling smart-phones "supercomputers in one's pocket".

May be the ARM chip based devices are "computing devices" for companies like Samsung, Google, or some car makers but certainly not for general public.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by happosai on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @02:47AM (#11532682)
"sure UNIX is nice, but you need a mainframe for REAL work" "sure NT is nice, but you need a UNIX workstation for REAL work" "sure mobile is nice, buy you need a windows PC for REAL work"

I crunched to inbox zero with my phone while commuting to work, while I'm typing this at my "real work computer"

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by ciroduran on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @04:05AM (#11532925)
I read that statement more like in terms of the freedom you're allowed to build and run applications for such devices. Mobile devices usually discourage the user to do this.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by sangnoir on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @05:38AM (#11533205)
> I read that statement more like in terms of the freedom you're allowed to build and run applications for such devices

Even if we disregard how arbitrary that definition of "computing device" is, it's still a false proposition. Anyone can easily get a browser, a word processor and spreadheets on their mobile device or tablet (ARM). That's about as much computing as a significant chunk of the population requires.

I have debian chroot on my Android device which gives me Vim, GCC and javac out of the box.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by dgemm on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @12:07AM (#11532193)
How much "computing" do you think the average user does with a PC?
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by ominous on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @05:52AM (#11533254)
How much photosynthesis do you think the average planet does with its star? Enough to justify chloroplasts?

How much complexity do you think the average mind generates with its time? Enough to justify the ATP?

How much thinking do you think the average human does with his brains? Are brains worth it? Stay tuned.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by TallGuyShort on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @05:13PM (#11530476)
Given the growth in trends such as ARM for mobile devices and dynamic resource allocation on the cloud, I still don't think you can make that broad a statement.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by ranci on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @05:25PM (#11530571)
Can you make the statement that the economy had nothing to do with it? A business' success or failure is reliant on the economy on a fundamental level. I imagine if college graduates weren't struggling to find jobs and pay off their massive student debts they would have sold more computers, despite the trends working against them.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by Spooky23 on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @05:38PM (#11530678)
Because it isn't relevant. This is the impact of moving to the cloud. Those broke and indebted college kids are buying $800 iPhones instead of $800 PCs, because they don't need the hassle.

I'm a power user. I have a 4 year old MacBook and a 2 core * 4GB VDI session. I won't replace the MacBook for another 18 months.

Even in enterprise IT... Every project we did in 2004/2005 required a server purchase with two Xeon sockets and a NIC that might be Intel.

Now the average marginal unit of virtual server needs 1/50 of an Intel Xeon. And a lot of those Xeons are at AWS, which squeezes the margins.

Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by sp332 on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @05:29PM (#11530616)
They're focusing on being "the cloud", which definitely makes business sense when you consider that 10% of the world's electricity goes to data centers. Microsoft's next US-East Azure building will be a mile long! I think Intel will do fine if they focus on that market instead of PCs.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by mtgx on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @05:20PM (#11530529)
Yes, but most of those "computers" (that people do keep buying) happen to be smartphones these days.
Re:Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight by bduerst on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:36PM (#11531334)
What are you going on about?

Both Intel's sales and profit are even YoY in 2015, and up from 2013. This doesn't have much to do with computer sales.