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Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by devishard on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:15AM (#11472050)
Can we just admit that we all know what the term 1% is intended to mean in context and not have this silly semantic argument again? There are real, important issues here and being pedantic distracts from the discussion.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by turnip1979 on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:30AM (#11472157)
No. I am sick of politicians vilyfing the 1% ... in Canada, that means a family income of around 180K. Taxes get raised, benefits get cut etc. on people who have to pay 8-12 times their income to afford houses in major cities and have massive student loan debts to service (where professional jobs are anyways). Having a tax system that is blind to local income/cost of living differences is stupid. The 1% rhetoric really needs to end. I am in the 1% and I am fucked. I'm in my late 30s .. I have no house and can barely afford one. Sorry if this sounds like whining but this system of screwing people who actually do work and generate income needs to end. Here's an idea ... lets stop taxing income and start taxing assets.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by wavefunction on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:53AM (#11472360)
You're not in the 1% as it is popularly used. 1% applies to wealth, not income. I hear you on the difficulty of receiving a high wage yet finding it difficult to get a foothold established.

In my city's case, there are extreme amounts of outside capital flowing into Austin to try to take advantage of the hype pumped out by all the various vacuous media channels in this country.

All that wealth sitting out there, being used to drive up property prices so that average working folks can't afford to live in the city they supposedly live in.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by twoodfin on Monday April 11, 2016 @03:02PM (#11474223)
You're not in the 1% as it is popularly used. 1% applies to wealth, not income.

This is historically inaccurate, at least for American politics. There, the use of the phrase "top 1%" goes back at least as far as debates over then-Governor George W. Bush's income tax plan in the 2000 election[1]. Gore frequently used it as 'wealthiest 1%', but he was clearly citing studies based on the income breakdown[2].

If you want somebody who will fight for you and who will fight to have middle-class tax cuts, then I am your man. I want to be. Now, I doubt anybody here makes more than $330,000 a year. I won't ask you, but if you do, you're in the top 1%.

[1] http://debates.org/index.php?page=october-17-2000-debate-tra...

[2] http://www.ctj.org/html/bush0800.htm

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by eterm on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:14PM (#11472582)
You earn more than 99% of people and you think you're fucked?
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by MawNicker on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:38PM (#11472853)
Yeah... And he explained. Also with student debt it actually makes a lot of sense. Many doctors have hundreds of thousands in debt. Some people need their high salaries.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by turnip1979 on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:54PM (#11473015)
People who are over 45 own most of the houses. Bought years ago for a fraction of the current price.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by base698 on Monday April 11, 2016 @01:12PM (#11473213)
Finance needs it's cut of everything.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by pc86 on Monday April 11, 2016 @03:23PM (#11474387)
What does finance have to do with everything? Or are you complaining about the fact that interest rates exist?
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by ArkyBeagle on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:56PM (#11473039)
The 1% are proportionally more represented in bankruptcy court than the 10%.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by mcv on Tuesday April 12, 2016 @03:23PM (#11482728)
If being in the top 1% is so hard, why not share a bit more of that wealth?
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by ArkyBeagle on Tuesday April 12, 2016 @07:23PM (#11484475)
It's not "hard", it's just more complicated. And sharing the wealth is harder still. I say that based on observation; I doubt I'll ever be a 1%-er. Maybe a 10%-er, but probably not.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by sievebrain on Monday April 11, 2016 @01:20PM (#11473298)
Earn more pre-tax
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by epicureanideal on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:19PM (#11472639)
Letting this misconception continue is also potentially (although unlikely) dangerous to all of us who worked our way into the 1%. If there ever is any large scale social movement "against the 1%" the population involved in that movement is apparently not going to distinguish between us and the billionaires with inherited wealth.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by pc86 on Monday April 11, 2016 @03:20PM (#11474356)
Are you suggesting it's okay to tax their wealth but not yours?
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by lerpa on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:28PM (#11477036)
Obviously, it's always ok to vilify others
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by pjc50 on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:12PM (#11472566)
Yes .. but, by definition, 99% of people are worse off than you. They can't afford a house either.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by superuser2 on Monday April 11, 2016 @01:15PM (#11473254)
For someone making $90k in San Francisco, a 1-bedroom apartment with a parking space is categorically off the table.

For someone making $45k in the Midwest, a 3-bedroom house with a 2-car garage in an excellent school district is expected.

If the 1%er moves to a lower cost of living area, he will not be a 1%er anymore.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by quadrangle on Monday April 11, 2016 @05:46PM (#11475397)
But SF is an outlier for cost of living. And anyone in the U.S. can still buy a toaster for $25 no matter where you live etc.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by WalterBright on Monday April 11, 2016 @03:38PM (#11474493)
Look at all the houses in the US. They can't all be owned by only 1% of the population.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by turnip1979 on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:58PM (#11473060)
Not true. Think about it.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by mahyarm on Monday April 11, 2016 @04:51PM (#11474981)
Where in canada do you live? Is there anything specific location wise that keeps you to a certain location? You probably could afford a house in alberta or quebec for example. But toronto and especially vancouver are economic bad ideas. Could you get a job in the USA too? The price/income ratios there tend to be much better.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by dmoy on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:55AM (#11472379)
Hang on isn't Canada's homeownership rate like >>50%? How is it that you can't afford a house if you're in the 1%?
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by darryl42 on Monday April 11, 2016 @01:35PM (#11473491)
When houses start at over 1 million even the bottom of the 1% can have trouble buying. Houses are going up 24% year over year which is much higher then you can save money. Condo prices prices are not going up as quickly so they don't work as a good stepping stone. Out in the burbs if you want to be near transit will still be 600-800 for something livable, actually there doesn't seem to be a difference in price between a tear down and something you could live in. Might be a bit bias as I was out looking at houses on the weekend.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by gnaritas on Monday April 11, 2016 @03:07PM (#11474265)
Move away from all the rich people.

> Houses are going up 24% year over year

That's called a bubble, such a rise is not sustainable.

Look, you're living in a place full of rich people, so you feel poor by comparison, that's expected, so deal with it or move.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by mahyarm on Monday April 11, 2016 @04:54PM (#11475012)
If rents are disconnected from housing prices, you're in a housing bubble. I think you're in vancouver too, so move away!
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by gnuthulhu on Monday April 11, 2016 @01:28PM (#11473404)
When I bought my house in Toronto 20 years ago it was 3.5 times my annual salary. Now it is valued at more than 7 times my current salary (doing the same type of work).
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by manarth on Monday April 11, 2016 @03:18PM (#11474344)
This is surprisingly difficult: http://www.crackshackormansion.com/
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by turnip1979 on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:59PM (#11473080)
Prices increased around 50-100% since 2008. In 2008, the market was considered by many to be overvalued.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by ArkyBeagle on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:59PM (#11473073)
Housing in Canada never stopped going up in price.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by branchless on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:37AM (#11472227)
You need to think about how to stop the banks creating more credit. That is absorbing all productivity gains. Forget semantics about 1% or 0.1%.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by retube on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:29AM (#11472152)
I disagree. A lot of people railing against the so called 1% are in fact 1% themselves on a global basis (e.g much of the Guardian readership). They tend to be very keen for people richer than themselves to share their wealth, but despite in fact being richer than most people on earth tend not to be so keen to share their own wealth.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by noir_lord on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:35AM (#11472216)
Except if you look at the total taxation burden as a percentage the non-super rich already do share more of the burden.

I pay a far higher percentage of my income as tax to the society I live in than the people in the panama papers.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by retube on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:12PM (#11472563)
> I pay a far higher percentage of my income as tax to the society I live in than the people in the panama papers.

Well you absolutely don't know that. And whilst no doubt some people _are_ avoiding tax, many are not. And btw overall the rich pay a far higher portion of their income in tax than the poor. In the UK for example the top 1% of earners account for 30% of the total tax take (up from 20% 10 years ago). The top 3,000 pay more than the 9m bottom.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by dsharlet on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:27PM (#11472728)
We absolutely do know that. Even without any aggressive tax avoidance schemes, if you have a significant investment income, you probably pay an effective ~15% tax rate [1] [2]. I can pretty much guarantee you that most of the people named are in this bucket.

If you earn a salary that puts you in the literal 1%, you probably pay an effective tax rate of 30-50%. I don't know how low your income needs to get to reach a 15% tax rate on income, but it's really low.

1. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opinion/stop-coddling-the-...

2. http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Elections/President/2012/0119/U...

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by pc86 on Monday April 11, 2016 @03:30PM (#11474437)
Since I graduated college my income has increased from ~$28k to over $100k. My effective tax rate has only increased. When I was earning in the mid $30k's it was about 4%. Last year was 12%.

> I don't know how low your income needs to get to reach a 15% tax rate on income, but it's really low.

I was below 15% in the low $70k range for sure. We'll see what it is this year.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by Malarkey73 on Monday April 11, 2016 @03:29PM (#11474432)
That's wrong. The top 1% pay 30% of income tax. But this is only about a third of UK tax revenues. There is then NI, council taxes, property taxes, business taxes, VAT and duties.

The poorly paid actually spend a much higher % of there income in tax than the top 1%. And their contribution has been rising as the income and wealth based taxes are cut and the consumption based taxes have risen.

I don't blame you for thinking that is the case though as this canard has been pushed heavily by the UK press.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by TheOtherHobbes on Monday April 11, 2016 @01:00PM (#11473090)
The top 3000 also benefit from a much greater percentage of the assets of the national economy than the millions at the bottom, so that seems entirely fair.

Some people are so rich they don't even appear on the rich lists. I don't know how much tax they pay, but I suspect it isn't much.

Generally, if you can literally fit the people who own most of the economic assets of a country into a small hall, you have a serious democratic deficit.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by sievebrain on Monday April 11, 2016 @01:24PM (#11473346)
How does that work? What assets are they benefiting from more than others?

If you're in the top 3000 people by income in the UK, you get to ride the same crappy trains as everyone else, drive the same crappy roads (unless you try go everywhere by helicopter - hardly practical), get the same government services, have access to the same markets and the same products in those markets; how many companies produce luxury goods these days? Unless you're an idiot and buy diamond encrusted iPhones, the stuff in your house is going to be similar to other people's. You'll be eating similar meat, drinking the same water. You could collect rare art or something, but that's hardly a meaningful part of the national economy.

The top 3000 get pretty similar benefits from the economy as everyone else, they just pay a lot more in absolute terms for the privilege.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by gnaritas on Monday April 11, 2016 @03:13PM (#11474310)
> How does that work? What assets are they benefiting from more than others?

Um you're confusing equal access with equal benefit...

> you get to ride the same crappy trains as everyone else, drive the same crappy roads (unless you try go everywhere by helicopter - hardly practical), get the same government services, have access to the same markets and the same products in those markets

Yea, except by being the super rich, you're benefiting far more from all those same crappy assets. Think about a rich person in retail.... their millions/billions depend on the existence of all those crappy roads to bring them customers and products to sell them. When said roads disappear, you both lose access to them, but the rich person loses far more as his access to customers also depends on those roads.

Equal access and equal benefit are vastly different things. The rich benefit more from infrastructure than the poor because their businesses are built upon and depend upon them.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by mikeash on Monday April 11, 2016 @01:20PM (#11473294)
How much of the total income do the top 1% of earners account for? And when you say 30% of total taxes, is that all taxes or just some subset? In the US, it's extremely common to make such comments which only refer to income taxes, ignoring payroll and sales taxes which are regressive. I don't know if it's similar for UK figures, but it has left me wary.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by kspaans on Monday April 11, 2016 @02:26PM (#11473923)
UK figures get kind of messed up by NI (National Insurance). It's basically income tax + pension payments + etc. rolled up into one, but billed separately from "income tax". For most people it's around 8-12%.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by oldmanjay on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:46AM (#11472314)
since people can't be straightforward about the envy driving their political beliefs we have to put up with lazy emotional hand-wringing in place of a manipulate examination. Is it your contention that this lazy hand-wringing should go unchallenged because it aligns with your personal envies?
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by ArkyBeagle on Monday April 11, 2016 @01:04PM (#11473139)
It is not envy to note that monetary velocity is down.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by noir_lord on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:00PM (#11472436)
Do you still beat your wife?
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by walshemj on Monday April 11, 2016 @02:35PM (#11473989)
And I bet like Tony Benn they also have parents who changed there wills to manage in heritance tax and have ISA's with more in then David Cameron's tiny little offshore holding.

You know when your grown up when you have a discussion with your parents about their wills and inheritance tax.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by tremon on Monday April 11, 2016 @04:21PM (#11474782)
on a global basis

But that's a meaningless metric. How is it comforting to know that 99% of people in India or Ethiopia have no voice in US (or UK, in this case) politics either?

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by mikeash on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:51AM (#11472354)
It's not pedantry, it's a legitimate complaint about a term which perpetuates confusion about how wealth is distributed.

What distracts from the discussion is using a term which lumps mid-career doctors in with billionaires while only talking about the billionaires.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by orbitingpluto on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:46PM (#11472923)
"Millionthaires" as in 1 in a...
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by mikeash on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:54PM (#11473019)
I think we should save that as a clever way to refer to the average person, whose net worth is measured in millionths of a dollar.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by devishard on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:00PM (#11472439)
Who exactly is confused by this term? Can you point out the group that's railing against mid-career doctors and their offshore tax havens?
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by mikeash on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:54PM (#11473006)
Random example: http://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/research-publications/an...

That summary jumps seamlessly from a literal use of "the richest 1%" to "A global network of tax havens" without any indication that they've suddenly begun talking about a much smaller set of people.

Or browse articles about the 1% on occupy.com or Huffington Post:

http://www.occupy.com/tags/1

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/top-1-percent/

Both sometimes use "1%" to refer to literally the top 1% wealthiest people, and sometimes to refer to the ultra rich. You can jump from a numbers-based article about where the 1% earn their money to a screed about how "the one percent" are putting out expensive videos downplaying the plight of minimum-wage workers.

It's a rare political term that actually has a pretty clear meaning. It's a bit vague in that it could refer to income or net worth, and nationally or worldwide, but it's way better than stuff like "liberal" or "conservative" or "terrorist." Using such a precise term as a lazy synonym for "the ultra rich" is ridiculous.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by devishard on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:41PM (#11477083)
> That summary jumps seamlessly from a literal use of "the richest 1%" to "A global network of tax havens" without any indication that they've suddenly begun talking about a much smaller set of people.

Hint: It's because they haven't suddenly begun talking about a much smaller set of people.

None of the links you posted are talking about the literal 1% as the problem. They'll reference statistics about the literal 1%, but only because the literal 1% includes the figurative 1%.

> It's a rare political term that actually has a pretty clear meaning. It's a bit vague in that it could refer to income or net worth, and nationally or worldwide, but it's way better than stuff like "liberal" or "conservative" or "terrorist." Using such a precise term as a lazy synonym for "the ultra rich" is ridiculous.

I totally agree with you, and personally I try not to use the term because I think using it shows poor communication skills: I think it's exemplary of everything that made the occupy movement largely unsuccessful. But it also shows poor communication skills to derail a discussion just to enforce the usage of your terminology, even if your terminology is more accurate.

There is no movement to overthrow doctors. Stop defending people who aren't under attack.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by webXL on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:36PM (#11472830)
The people who continue to use the inexact figure is who. Why was 1% chosen and not 10% or 0.01% for that matter? And "railing against" != confusion. If enough people believe something, certain people in that group can do some pretty messed up shit without exactly "railing" first.

Confusion might not be the best word, but we should avoid perpetuating the notion that the entire 1% is to blame for average people not getting ahead.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by devishard on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:50PM (#11477124)
> Why was 1% chosen and not 10% or 0.01% for that matter?

Because it's a simple number to write.

Lay-people using this term have no idea that the 1% includes doctors and lawyers, they just assume it's ultra-rich bankers, executives, and hedge fund managers. Yes, that means that if you're incapable of understanding context it might sound like they're talking down on doctors and lawyers. But I assure you they're not.

> And "railing against" != confusion. If enough people believe something, certain people in that group can do some pretty messed up shit without exactly "railing" first.

What are you even saying?

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by fleitz on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:26AM (#11472123)
I always assumed it meant the 70 million richest people on the planet, you know those rich people with college degrees who have time to hang out in parks and complain about how the world no longer treats them any better than anyone else.

It seems they want their taxes increased and that money sent to Bangladesh to make for less income inequality.

Despite their college degrees I suspect they are innumerate and have a difficult time understanding meanings of words that don't favor their privileged position in the world.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by turnip1979 on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:32AM (#11472184)
Depends on the country. In many developed counties with social assistance, you will see hordes of unemployed people at the malls and at parks. Doing .. nothing. I'm all for social assistance but we are destroying the middle class.
Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by devishard on Tuesday April 12, 2016 @03:17AM (#11477760)
I'd rather give $100 billion to 2 million people and have 1 million of them do nothing than give $100 billion to 1 person and have 1 million people starve.

Social assistance programs are so meager and inexpensive compared to the cut we give to the finance industry. It's ridiculous to begrudge social assistance to people who need it just because some people who receive it don't.

Frankly, I'm just not offended that some people don't work. There aren't useful things for a lot of people to do. I'm much more offended that some people are rewarded incomprehensible amounts of money which no human can possibly be worth, often for activities that are actively harmful.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by tremon on Monday April 11, 2016 @04:27PM (#11474822)
you will see hordes of unemployed people at the malls and at parks. Doing .. nothing

That's odd. I mostly see employed people at malls and in parks. How do you tell them apart? Or do you just assume that they're unemployed, because they're in a park, doing nothing?

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by fleitz on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:38AM (#11472240)
As far as I'm aware there are 7 billion people on the planet...

Yes, the middle class in America is losing people to the upper class at a 2:1 ratio to the lower class, if this continues 66% of people will be in the upper classes in the next few generations.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by sgift on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:50AM (#11472340)
Translation: Hey, someone else has it even worse than you, why aren't you happy?!

This completely ignores that you can be better off than someone else and still live in a shitty situation, but it sounds so nice ..

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by fleitz on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:49PM (#11472964)
You can be in any situation and still live in a shitty situation.

That's why many philosophies boil down to: you're going to be dead soon, you might as well start enjoying it, and if you're not... well... you know what to do.

Only in America would people who borrowed money to take a 4 year sabbatical be complaining about being poor.

Re:The 1% hide their money offshore, then use it to corrupt ... by lovich on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:46PM (#11472922)
If Bangladesh wants to become part of one of these countries and follow all of their laws and regulations, then sure your argument could make some sense. Whats happening here is people railing against inequality inside of their own political systems.