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Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by empath75 on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:26PM (#11424656)
The top marginal tax rate would have to be dramatically increased to pay for it. Also, you'd have to increase capital gains and estate taxes.

Make no mistake, basic minimum income would be a massive redistribution of wealth. I'm in favor of it, but let's not pretend we can pay for it by shuffling around some social safety net spending.

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by refurb on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:50PM (#11424905)
The top marginal tax rate would have to be dramatically increased to pay for it

Someone should do the math! Sure you could increase the top marginal rate, but where does that get you. Yes, the top 1% is very wealthy, but there aren't many of them.

I would bet you'd have to increase income taxes well down the income ladder, dipping down into what most people call the middle class. You simply can't avoid it, that's where all the money is.

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by JonFish85 on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:03PM (#11425048)
As with any tax increase, the middle class is always the ones that bear the brunt of it, because for all the noise about taxing the 1%, there just isn't enough money to take. The people that end up really paying the price are the people who worked their entire lives to be able to pay for their kids' college, not the people who have $10b in assets.

Politicians are happy to talk about raising the taxes of the wealthy and to cut taxes to the middle class. However, in practice, this means a massive loss in tax revenue, so eventually the middle class taxes have to go back up, or cuts need to be made.

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by jrs235 on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:20PM (#11425765)
"As with any tax increase, the middle class is always the ones that bear the brunt of it" because we continually keep talking about taxing income instead of wealth.

Tax wealth more and income less. WHAT?!?!?!! People say? Well that really fancy and expensive military we are paying for.. it's not just protecting your income. It's protecting your wealth. Pay your fair proportional share for security of your assets...

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by JonFish85 on Monday April 04, 2016 @07:56PM (#11426747)
Huh? As I said, it would take the combined wealth of the top 1000 wealthiest Americans to pay for the federal budget for one year. Pretty quickly you run out of people whose money you can take without getting to the middle class. No matter how you slice it, the real money is in the middle class.
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by jrs235 on Monday April 04, 2016 @11:37PM (#11427599)
When people talk about raising or lowering taxes they are usually talking about income taxes (not property taxes). I'm suggesting we tax all property (assets/wealth).
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by JonFish85 on Tuesday April 05, 2016 @12:11PM (#11431593)
What does that change? As I said, the combined net worth (everything that they own: cash, property, stock, etc) of the top 1000 richest Americans pays for the federal budget for one year. The only way to raise enough money to pay for things is to make the middle class pay the bulk of it. Whether it's via income tax, net-worth tax, etc, there simply isn't enough in "the 1%" to pay for things.

And that's not to mention that you're essentially taxing the same assets multiple times. The stock that, say, Zuckerberg owns was already taxed when he received it. You're asking to re-tax the same thing over and over and over again. This sort of taxing already exists (property tax & excise tax come to mind), but I'm not really sure what sort of gain you think would come of it.

No matter how you run the numbers, the money comes from the middle class.

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by earlz on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:12PM (#11425133)
In theory there would definitely be some tax increases even for middle class, ideally it'd be closely balanced so that the non-conditional UBI would balance out the tax increases
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by aetherson on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:35PM (#11424747)
Not the top marginal tax rate, the tax rates on probably the top 50% -- certainly the top 25%.

Which is not necessarily crazy -- I think that a basic income is an attractive idea, though I doubt the ability to implement it well. But just like we shouldn't pretend we could just shuffle some social safety net programs, we also shouldn't pretend that you could just tax the 1%.

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by mdorazio on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:23PM (#11425253)
Increasing capital gains taxes back to historical levels doesn't actually get you very far. Maybe another 100-200 billion [1]. Forcing corporations to pay taxes on all money earned in the US instead of tossing it offshore would get you another 90 billion or so [2].

Realistically, almost all of the revenue has to come from increasing personal income tax, probably mostly on the top 5% of earners, but realistically everyone would have to pay more. I haven't yet done the calculations, but it seems like we're talking double digit percentage increases.

[1] http://people.opposingviews.com/percent-irs-revenue-comes-ca... [2] http://www.americansfortaxfairness.org/tax-fairness-briefing...

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by alttab on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:32PM (#11424722)
It would completely remove the necessity to be productive. That can't turn out well.

What's preventing me from having as many babies as I can knowing that they too will not have to work or find a job to be supported?

I know this won't work at scale, because I understand math.

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by thesimon on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:45PM (#11424851)
>It would completely remove the necessity to be productive. That can't turn out well.

As seen in welfare states in Scandinavia or Germany, where almost no one works because of the unemployment benefits.

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by snerbles on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:56PM (#11424965)
Of course not, but the stability of such a state is becoming a concern with the current migration situation.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/02/wel...

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by alttab on Tuesday April 05, 2016 @10:27AM (#11430600)
And it's ignoring culture.
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by usefulcat on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:58PM (#11424988)
Wait, are you really suggesting that people decide how many children to have based on whether they believe those children will have to work when they become adults?
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by emidln on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:46PM (#11424864)
There's no necessity to be productive now. Most (all?) of the minimum wage jobs in the United States aren't productive to society except so far as that they have some minimal amount of money to make violent property crime slightly less attractive.
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by jack9 on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:46PM (#11424859)
> It would completely remove the necessity to be productive. That can't turn out well.

Take a look at mobile games. People do lots of things just to be 1 rung higher on an artificial competitive ladder (reset every month) about endlessly punching a "Battle" button. I think this idea that necessity has ever driven productivity (look around at your job) is a long running joke.

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by tangent128 on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:38PM (#11424775)
Why would you <em>want</em> to have as many babies as you can?
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by alttab on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:40PM (#11424798)
What if having a big family brings me joy? If welfare and basic income provide the support I need to have a huge family without being productive, why would I choose to live a life that is inconsistent with my life's motivations? Why work for a living when I can do what I want, and be just as comfortable? I don't need a Tesla, so I'll leave the working for the chumps.
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by tangent128 on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:32PM (#11425341)
Congratulations, you get to be productive by raising society's next generation.

Sincerely. Many people don't desire large families, if any, or are physically incapable of reproduction. So why pressure them to when others are perfectly willing to pick up the slack?

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by lintiness on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:34PM (#11424736)
you need to emotion this a little more and get back to us.
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by SilasX on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:00PM (#11425014)
... and you'd have to stop everyone from throwing complicated tax structures around their incomes to avoid the increasing tax rates.

I know, "just close the loopholes lol". Except that it's a battle of wits of nerds against a bureaucracy with every-bigger portions of the economy at stake, where every government victory is a longer, less transparent tax code.

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by harryh on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:50PM (#11425529)
Recent increases in the capital gains tax rate were very effective at increasing taxes on people in the upper end of the income spectrum. The ability of high earners to avoid taxes through complex use of loopholes is vastly overstated.