News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by superuser2 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @02:39AM (#11410518)
Except we're not talking about people who need babysitting, but people who are babysitters. High school students are perfectly capable of waking up and getting ready for the day after their parents have left the house.

There's no good reason for high school hours and parents work hours to be coupled, unless it is necessary for a parent to drive the kids to school on their way to work (i.e. because the bus is too slow and would require waking up hours earlier).

In which case the actual problem has nothing to do with education policy, and everything to do with the parents' decision to live in sprawl.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by greedo on Saturday April 02, 2016 @10:50AM (#11411717)
A lot of school districts don't have buses except for special needs students. That puts the onus on parents to provide transportation until the students are old enough to drive.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by gambiting on Saturday April 02, 2016 @11:49AM (#11411923)
I'm from Poland and I went to a private school - out of the 1000 students at school I think maybe 5 were dropped off by their parents, and it was a sign of extreme wealth, all kids are expected to walk or take a bus to school. When I started primary school at the age of 7 I walked to school, it was like a mile away. My parents also left to work before me, I had to lock the door behind me, and when I got back from school they wouldn't be back yet usually. I'm pretty sure kids are perfectly capable of getting to school on their own.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by munificent on Saturday April 02, 2016 @01:42PM (#11412407)
> When I started primary school at the age of 7 I walked to school, it was like a mile away.

The US is about thirty times larger than Poland and much of it was developed after the wide adoption of automobiles. Few children live within a mile of their school here, and of the ones that do, there are often not walkable routes to get there. Many roads in the US have no sidewalk and are intended only for vehicle traffic.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by rustynails on Saturday April 02, 2016 @06:16PM (#11413777)
In the 60s - 80s, most kids walked to school unassisted. This was the norm. I used to walk 1.5kms when I was 5 and today, my kids walk less than 500m. Still, helicopter parenting and Political Correctness has (as another poster stated) almost made this a crime.

I am one of the few parents that trusts their own kids to walk a short distance to school by themselves. I have received a few comments from other parents implying negligence for trusting my kids.

I have doubts that it's busy roads that changed this behaviour.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by eli_gottlieb on Saturday April 02, 2016 @02:50PM (#11412740)
>Few children live within a mile of their school here

Is that really true? 80% of Americans live within large metro areas rather than rural areas.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by superuser2 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @02:59PM (#11412784)
The metro areas include a great deal of sprawl where the schools (and even the drugstores) are separated from residential subdivisions by several miles of fast roads with no sidewalks or bike lanes.

Look for the percentage who actually live in the cities, vs. the metro areas.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by cafard on Sunday April 03, 2016 @07:34PM (#11418384)
I live in the District of Columbia, call it three miles from downtown. The high school students in the neighborhood who are in public schools attend Wilson High School or one of the district's magnets, namely School Without Walls and Banneker. Banneker might be a mile and a half away, Wilson and Walls are more like four miles. I will say that it appears to me that most of them take public transportation to and from school.

And when I lived in the Denver suburbs, my brother attended a couple of county schools. The junior high was at least a couple of miles away, the high school more like five. Do not underestimate American sprawl.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by ufmace on Saturday April 02, 2016 @05:13PM (#11413479)
Personally, I think that sounds cool, but it's pretty far outside of the norm in the US in several ways.

Part of it is the spread-out car culture of the US, where virtually the entire country is so car-centric that walking anywhere is prohibitively difficult and/or risky. It's kinda self-reinforcing - walking is awkward and discouraged, so almost nobody does it, so there's no incentive to fix any of the walkability problems, like missing or neglected sidewalks, bad traffic light behavior, huge parking lots everywhere to cross, etc.

But the bigger part IMHO is the stranger-danger paranoia. Google the free-range parenting movement here for a few disturbing stories. The media hypes up stories about rare child molesters who kidnap children off the streets for better viewership numbers, then people start to think that kidnappers are everywhere and you don't dare take your eyes off a kid for a minute. This makes its way into policy and expectations. Add that into the common viewpoint here that if you have a child, they must be the most important thing in your life and your entire life must be centered around improving the kid's life. You get a society where letting a child, or even teenager, walk to school seems so outrageously dangerous and irresponsible that kids may sometimes be picked up by the police and returned to their parents even though nothing is wrong, and the parents may sometimes even be investigated themselves for their supposedly wildly irresponsible behavior.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by rustynails on Saturday April 02, 2016 @06:31PM (#11413838)
This is the absolute truth. However, what's interesting is that the world is still basically the same as 50 years ago in terms of safety.

When I first went to school, my mother told me not to accept lollies, gifts or rides from strangers. The same fears existed, but people tempered those fears and kept paranoia in check.

What has most probably changed is the social attitude which has become far more judgemental and much more intolerant. I've given a lot of thought to these social attitudes and I see today's society as closer to the Torch and Pitchfork scenes in Beauty and the Beast (think of the feminist attack on Matt Taylor by The Verge as one of many examples of extreme verbal aggression by the masses). This mob intolerance has become popular and frequent in the last 10 or so years.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by ufmace on Saturday April 02, 2016 @07:13PM (#11414031)
Oh, absolutely. All of the numbers I've seen say that pretty much all kinds of danger are rarer than in the supposedly good old days. Yeah, there are some risks, but you take some reasonable precautions and get on with life instead of trying to reorganize society around reducing every risk to zero.

The media and political classes just creates an environment where it seems more dangerous for their own benefit. People who are constantly afraid buy more newspapers/click more news links and will vote to reduce their own rights. All the better if the dangers are essentially imaginary - the gravy train can keep running without worrying about figuring out something to do that actually solves the problem, or the problem going away once it's solved.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by toyg on Saturday April 02, 2016 @12:12PM (#11412036)
This post is completely irrelevant to Europeans, imho. Nowhere I know of, does any school start any activity before 8 AM. In the UK it's 9 AM in most places, in Italy it's 8:15 or later. Anything before 8 is extended daycare for parents who cannot fit the regular schedule. 7:30 start sounds totally insane.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by lhecker on Saturday April 02, 2016 @02:32PM (#11412657)
I'd be careful with "europeans", because primary school started at 7:00 for me in germany and gymnasium at 7:10. I had to stand up at 5:30 every day (and got to bed at about 23:00).

Most german friends I know of started earlier than 8:00 too (most started at 7:30). And yes I'm talking about actual lessons starting at that time - not "day care". Even though from our point of view there seemingly wasn't really a difference between those anyways...

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by gambiting on Saturday April 02, 2016 @12:14PM (#11412048)
We started at 7.45, so in middle school I actually had to get a bus at 6.50am, since it was a little further away. It's not the end of the world.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by maxerickson on Saturday April 02, 2016 @10:53AM (#11411727)
The school system here buses every student (they switched over due to it becoming prudent to close buildings).
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by Rangi42 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @03:34AM (#11410634)
Which is also not likely to change. Again: "Now adults have no immediate use for teenagers." Why move just for the sake of your kid's four years in high school?

This may not apply to urban families who take a train or bus to work. I commuted to high school on a subway by myself, and would have preferred leaving an hour or two later.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by superuser2 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @09:36AM (#11411445)
I could be mistaken, but don't most people move to sprawl in the first place because it's "a good place to raise your kids"?

Also, living in a city isn't the only solution. I lived in a suburb ten miles away from the city but all 3 schools were <15 minute walks.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by chongli on Saturday April 02, 2016 @09:13AM (#11411386)
but people who are babysitters

You hit the nail on the head with this one. High school hours are specifically set to end earlier than elementary and middle school hours. This is so that high schoolers can pick up their younger siblings and walk them home while parents are still at work.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by greedo on Saturday April 02, 2016 @10:51AM (#11411721)
Not the case in my school district. Our elementary schools get out before the high schools, and both middle and HS end at the same time.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by agentdrtran on Saturday April 02, 2016 @06:29AM (#11411008)
> High school students are perfectly capable of waking up and getting ready for the day after their parents have left the house.

Unless, of course, they need a ride to school.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by auxym on Saturday April 02, 2016 @08:19AM (#11411267)
What is it with parents driving their kids to school these days? Or is it a US thing? Back when I was in school, every single kid would ride the school bus. Well, except those close enough to walk/cycle, or those old enough to own and drive a car or scooter.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by pragone on Saturday April 02, 2016 @08:47AM (#11411327)
Where I grew up, you had to live more than 2.2 miles to qualify for the bus. I lived 2.1. Not an ideal distance to walk, especially since most of it was major roads without sidewalks
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by smileysteve on Saturday April 02, 2016 @11:25AM (#11411834)
I lived 1.5; I bicycled most days. My story for my kids will involve uphill both ways, off roading when there was traffic, through a graveyard, and a few days with limited amounts of ice/snow.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by neverminder on Saturday April 02, 2016 @08:45AM (#11411321)
Exactly. I was walking over 3 kilometers (2 miles) to school since I was 7 years old (I started school at 6, so I my parents drove me for a year to adjust). Nowadays parents treat their kids like they were made of candy glass.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by sp332 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @09:06AM (#11411367)
Geez, if I put all my high school books in my bag it weighed 40 pounds (I measured it once). And the cold weather means walking wasn't always an option.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by mikeash on Saturday April 02, 2016 @09:18AM (#11411397)
I went to high school in Wisconsin and walking was always an option. We did close schools when the temperature dropped below -40, though.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by liveoneggs on Saturday April 02, 2016 @10:32AM (#11411646)
uphill both ways and everything?
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by analog31 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @12:54PM (#11412200)
I live in Wisconsin and ride my bike to work throughout the year. Amusingly, it's often up-wind both ways, because the wind changes direction during the day. My kids walk or bike to school, or take the city bus.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by mikeash on Saturday April 02, 2016 @05:03PM (#11413432)
No, it was pretty flat. I'm amused that this sounds improbable, though. Cold isn't that big of an obstacle. I hated Wisconsin winters, but it's just a matter of dressing properly.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by halomru on Saturday April 02, 2016 @10:38AM (#11411675)
>And the cold weather means walking wasn't always an option.

Walking works great even when the roads are unusable for cars. The only relevant limit to walking in the winter is your clothing.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by sp332 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @12:11PM (#11412029)
And every kid just gets frostbite as a learning experience? Been there done that, got the scar for it. Not something I would want for my kids, thanks.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by kuschku on Saturday April 02, 2016 @09:14AM (#11411389)
I lived 2km from my primary school, and 4km from my middle and high school. My school bag was 16kg.

And it was easily possible to walk there, or later, bike there. (although I had to walk every now and so often when my bike broke down in -14°C in winter).

I don’t really see where the issue is?

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by pragone on Saturday April 02, 2016 @09:17AM (#11411394)
Different cultures I guess. I definitely would not have done that as a kid, my parents wouldn't have allowed me to, and someone would have called the police if they saw a 10y/o walking along these roads
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by analog31 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @01:02PM (#11412239)
It must be culture, at least in areas where walking to school is pretty convenient. Anecdote: When I was growing up, I walked to elementary school, all of five or six neighborhood blocks. The one kid who got driven to school, got teased for it.

Today, same school, same neighborhood, is a traffic jam every morning, as the kids are all driven to school. I could very well imagine parents saying that it's no longer safe to walk, due to the traffic. :-(

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by kuschku on Saturday April 02, 2016 @09:24AM (#11411412)
Probably. Here everyone did it, alone at my school we had 700 kids each morning coming by bike or foot. Out of 1200.

It was literally impossible to drive on the road for cars during the half hour each morning and afternoon where we kids were there.

Similar to Amsterdam or København

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by sp332 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @09:32AM (#11411432)
Aren't you worried about stress fractures in your feet? Especially since your bones were still growing at the time?
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by superuser2 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @09:48AM (#11411494)
2km. 1.24 miles? Stress fractures? What?

Every student on a residential college campus that's bigger than tiny is going to walk 3 or 4 times that in a day. Middle school students will stress their bodies a few orders of magnitude harder in sports practices (or even light exercise).

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by kuschku on Saturday April 02, 2016 @10:07AM (#11411563)
Why would I? Humans are built for walking, this is literally what we evolved to do.

4km a day, or later 8km a day is nothing, and has never caused me or anyone else I know – and literally every child here does this – any issues.

Even today, when I’m bored and I know the bus will only come in 30min, I usually just walk 6km home from uni.

________________________

I’m not even sure if your comment isn’t just satire, exaggerating the helicopter-mentality of some northamerican parents.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by sp332 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @12:08PM (#11412021)
I've always had problems with my feet and legs, so I'm probably just paranoid about it. No way I could walk that much on a regular basis without surgery.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by pc86 on Monday April 04, 2016 @10:20AM (#11422040)
If you can't walk the equivalent of five lengths around a standard track without stress fractures you have a serious, debilitating disease and should see a doctor immediately.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by sp332 on Monday April 04, 2016 @12:34PM (#11423196)
Isn't a standard track only ~a quarter mile (400m)? With a 40 lb pack, twice a day, plus hills, on young bones, with poor judgment about balance and weight placement, someone's going to get hurt. Stress fractures didn't seem implausible, though I suppose ligament injuries are more likely?

And yes, every specialist I've been to has said all I can do is try to protect my joints until I eventually decide I want surgery.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by avip on Saturday April 02, 2016 @04:32PM (#11413277)
Luxury!
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by smileysteve on Saturday April 02, 2016 @11:27AM (#11411843)
The opportunity to learn here is prioritization and utilization. Will you need all books at home today, can I do this homework at school during lunch, study hall, or before after?
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by sp332 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @12:21PM (#11412083)
I wouldn't need all books all days, but some days I did. I didn't usually have a study hall. I'm not sure what learning has to do with it? I don't control how much homework gets assigned or when.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by caffinatedmonk on Saturday April 02, 2016 @12:56PM (#11412212)
I'm a Junior in highschool and I have the same problems. Some teachers require you to bring all your books to their class every day. Others usually use textbook information to create PowerPoints which they use in class but it is still useful to have the textbook open to learn all the information which they skip. Students usually avoid carrying around textbooks by leaving most of their books in their lockers at school for most of the year but this makes it hard to study outside of school. They also cram all their homework during studyhalls and copy homework from others instead of actually studying though.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by amalcon on Saturday April 02, 2016 @10:21AM (#11411602)
My parents definitely didn't do that in the 80s/90s in the US. It might be a regional thing, though. It was basically the same where I grew up: the bus was how one got to school. If you didn't like it, ride your bike.

It was also easily the worst part of the day, so I can't blame parents from wanting to get their kids out of that.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by iopq on Saturday April 02, 2016 @11:15AM (#11411806)
Take a bus? What teenager can't take a bus by themselves?
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by superuser2 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @03:13PM (#11412865)
Those who live in developments explicitly planned to leverage the fact that people have cars to spread them out further and give each family more land/house for the same money.

In these places, everyone who matters politically has a car, everywhere they want to go has parking, roads are huge, etc. so there is no political will for expensive transit, and the surface area is too large to cover effectively with cheap transit.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by DSMan195276 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @11:40AM (#11411888)
In my district (and all the districts around me) there is no busing for high-school students. So for the students that don't drive (Which would account for probably more then half the school), parents or someone else has to drive them.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by Fargren on Saturday April 02, 2016 @01:07PM (#11412251)
And no public bus either I assume? I always took public transport to school, but I know that's highly dependant on where you live.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by dmoy on Saturday April 02, 2016 @02:32PM (#11412658)
Public busing in the US is awful in most cities. In the suburbs it's basically just to downtown and from downtown.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by iopq on Saturday April 02, 2016 @02:17PM (#11412577)
I didn't say busing for students, I meant take a bus with everyone else.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by DSMan195276 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @10:49PM (#11414679)
There's only one district I know of, of the ones which don't offer busing for high-school students, which has a public bus that goes to the high-school. My district in particular doesn't have any public buses that go to the high-school.
Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by iopq on Sunday April 03, 2016 @01:53AM (#11415098)
I took a tram to college. It went to downtown, not the campus, so I walked the rest of the way.

It's not ideal, but I didn't have my parents drive me (I didn't have a car). I don't see why high school students can't do this.

Re:Schools Are Slow to Learn That Sleep Deprivation Hits Tee... by DSMan195276 on Friday April 08, 2016 @01:44PM (#11456465)
What exactly are you proposing high-school students in my district do?

Perhaps I should have clarified, there are no buses/trams/subways or any type of public transportation in my school district for high-school students to take, because there is no public transportation period in my city. The only options for going to school are walk, ride a bike, or drive, and the first two aren't practical during winter - that's besides the fact that I lived three miles away from the school.