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Re:Ask HN: How much do you make at Amazon? Here is how much ... by tptacek on Friday March 18, 2016 @05:52PM (#11315466)
No. It's nowhere nearly that simple; you can say exactly the same thing about firing someone because they're black, or because they complained about sexual harassment.

From experience (as a bystander), what really happens in a case like this is:

* Employee is terminated

* Employee believes they were terminated for a reason forbidden by state or federal law

* Employee retains an employment lawyer, who drafts a letter demanding compensation for the improper termination, citing specific claims of (say) sexual harassment, complaints articulated to superiors and to HR, and subsequent retaliatory firing.

* Employee does not necessarily prove those claims; they need only demonstrate sufficient facts and allegations to ensure that a lawsuit would not easily be dismissed.

* Employer almost invariably settles.

The two cases where employers don't settle:

* Employer is stupid, and believes that they will pay less to litigate a wrongful termination case than to settle.

* Employer is smart, and has an HR department that keeps excruciatingly careful records of things like sexual harassment complaints, alleged racially-tinged comments, ratio of black/white hires to black/white applications, &c, and is prepared to make it clear to employee's lawyer that the case will cost too much to pursue.

If you've ever wondered why smart employers go fucking apeshit when people make racially-tinged jokes, or why it's not necessarily in your best interests to bring your concerns to HR unless your game plan is to bring a wrongful termination complaint, there you go.

This is also the reason why, despite at-will status in basically every locale where you can hire people, "Performance Improvement Plan" is a euphemism for "slow-motion termination". The purpose of a PIP is to establish in the written record that an employee is a non-performer, so that when they're terminated, the employer can present evidence that there were reasons other than retaliation or discrimination.

Re:Ask HN: How much do you make at Amazon? Here is how much ... by dsr_ on Friday March 18, 2016 @06:41PM (#11315822)
There is another reason for a PIP: the employer thinks the employee has been doing their job badly but could do acceptably well. The PIP is the last available tool to get them back up to speed.
Re:Ask HN: How much do you make at Amazon? Here is how much ... by tptacek on Friday March 18, 2016 @07:45PM (#11316227)
Most of the time, when your employer truly thinks that about you, they'll work on your improvement informally. I don't like saying this, but I think most people's best interests are served by the assumption that a PIP signals their employer's transition from "working to retain them" to "working to manage them out of the company".
Re:Ask HN: How much do you make at Amazon? Here is how much ... by vidarh on Saturday March 19, 2016 @06:46AM (#11318031)
In the places I've used PIP's we used them mainly on staff we hoped to get to a level where we could promote them. We didn't waste time on proper PIP's for people we wanted to manage out - for those people HR simply mandated no raises ever. They'd leave or gradually get cheap enough for what they delivered to be worth having around.

EDIT: It's worth noting that in these cases the staff in question also had clear evidence in the form of signed reviews rating them that they were performing well. E.g. the guy I spent most time on a performance improvement plan for was ranked "exceeds expectations" in every criteria three years in a row while I was there, and was given 15%+ raises each of those years. This was in Europe, but for a US company.

Re:Ask HN: How much do you make at Amazon? Here is how much ... by meric on Friday March 18, 2016 @08:37PM (#11316506)
On the off-chance they're doing that because your performance is abysmal and you haven't improved enough from their informal intervention, if in PIP you managed to finally recover your performance, maybe they will let you stay a bit longer.
Re:Ask HN: How much do you make at Amazon? Here is how much ... by tptacek on Friday March 18, 2016 @08:48PM (#11316549)
Sure. It's not a guarantee. But personally, I think if you get a PIP, your best next move is to start applying for other jobs.
Re:Ask HN: How much do you make at Amazon? Here is how much ... by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday March 21, 2016 @12:50PM (#11329433)
I agree.

I was the recipient of a PIP at my last job, went through the improvement process, and at the end of it, my manager signed off that my performance had returned to acceptable levels. I left about a month later.

So why am I not still there? Well, in the process of going through the PIP and asking myself how I let things get to that point, I realized that I was quite capable of excelling at everything I was supposed to be doing, but I just didn't give a shit anymore. My subconscious had already checked out of that job and was telling me it was time to move on.

When I realized that, my reaction was to start looking for another job while bringing my performance back to a good level. We quit on good terms: they "hired" me back to consult on some problems that came up after I left; I helped someone transition into my old position and I have a job better suited to my personality.

Re:Ask HN: How much do you make at Amazon? Here is how much ... by enraged_camel on Saturday March 19, 2016 @12:36AM (#11317321)
By the way, you don't have to sign the PIP. In fact, you shouldn't, because if you do, you're basically admitting that, yes, your performance is indeed low and needs improvement. And that goes in your employee file.

The right thing to do is to take the paperwork and say, "thanks, can you give me a few days to review this?" and stall as much as possible while looking for another job.

If you're feeling especially ballsy (and very confident in your ability to find another job quickly) you can say, "I'm not familiar with these at all, and my grandpa (R.I.P) always told me to get everything reviewed by an attorney before signing it, so that's what want to do. Is that OK?"

Re:Ask HN: How much do you make at Amazon? Here is how much ... by a3n on Friday March 18, 2016 @11:58PM (#11317224)
Exactly. "Thank you for letting me know well in advance that you intend to let me go."
Re:Ask HN: How much do you make at Amazon? Here is how much ... by Spooky23 on Friday March 18, 2016 @09:44PM (#11316774)
The PIP is paperwork to establish that you aren't being canned for a non-discriminatory reason. Period.

There is no self-improvement.

Re:Ask HN: How much do you make at Amazon? Here is how much ... by tamana on Friday March 18, 2016 @09:53PM (#11316814)
Once the PIP appears, improvement has already failed. If your peers and manager can't fix your performance problem, his could some arbitrary HR paperwork process?
Re:Ask HN: How much do you make at Amazon? Here is how much ... by grogenaut on Saturday March 19, 2016 @02:22AM (#11317567)
because sometimes "Oh fuck this is real" works.
Re:Ask HN: How much do you make at Amazon? Here is how much ... by 404codenotfound on Monday March 28, 2016 @03:04PM (#11376506)
Yes it can (& did).