If I knew I was going to have to drive a car to the dealership anytime something went wrong, I would not buy that car. It's a big hassle (especially if the dealership is any distance away) and almost always outrageously expensive for anything outside of warranty. And if it's something that I can't do myself, I'd rather take it to a cheaper local mechanic I know and trust.
According to the article, Teslas only have service manuals available in Massachusetts (and there only on an extremely expensive subscription basis), no independent shops, and doesn't have a working OBD-II port. That sounds like a nightmare to me.
Granted, it's way out of my price range anyway. ;)
So my wife takes it to our old, trusty local mechanic, and their repairs are a lot cheaper. I forgot if they could also advise us on whether this was reasonable in the first place.
I think my mother also often ended up at an independent mechanic after getting disappointed by official dealers. (My dad always drove leased company cars so didn't have to worry about this stuff. I know nothing about cars (but I'm glad my wife does).)
It's unlucky that they sold you a car where the brakes were soon to be replaced but they are really wear parts. However I was suprised to hear that also most of the electrical stuff doesn't fall under warranty. I'm from Germany so it might be different in other countries.
Of course, there are also crooks out there, so challenge is finding good shop, but once you did, there's absolutely no reason to not do business with them except for things like recalls.
And, of course, for older out-of-warranty cars - which is the vehicle of choice for a real lot of "non-enthusiasts" who just don't have money to buy a shiny new car that loses 20% of value right after driving off the dealer parking lot - there's absolutely no reason to prefer dealers if you have a competent independent shop.
Tires and oil changes are the two biggest service jobs on cars these days, since everything else is so reliable. But on a 10-year-old car, it's entirely possible to do more substantial repairs thanks to the OBD-II service tools that are available. You can get one of these scanners for $100 now (or less for a crappier one), look up any codes thrown by the ECU, which will tell you exactly which sensor has gone bad. As long as the manufacturer isn't intentionally making it so you need a dealership tool to do stuff, these cars can be quite a bit easier to work on that older ones since they tell you what's wrong.
I'm not sure why this thread turned into multiple attempts to convince me that independent mechanics are a good value that can do the same or better work than a dealer. I never claimed they couldn't, I stated that I don't think most people have a trusted mechanic that isn't the dealer. So far I've gotten a lot of down votes, anecdotes, but no data. I very well could be wrong, I was stating my opinion based on what I've seen and experienced.
Look at YourMechanic, it's filling a need in the market to link independent mechanics to car owners. It is using a verified user trust model to rate them. If the vast majority of people had trusted mechanics they wouldn't be gaining much traction in the market.
Yeah, I'm not sure how that happened.
>I very well could be wrong, I was stating my opinion based on what I've seen and experienced.
I'm not sure there's any easy way of proving it one way or the other really. Personally, I still see plenty of independent mechanic businesses; I live down the street from two of them now, at a prior residence a year ago in a totally different state, I lived down the street from another one that was constantly busy and had people working there at very late hours to get all the work done. Then why I go to dealerships (I was shopping for a car a while back) I find them all closed all day Sunday, and closed early on other days. If your service department were busy, you wouldn't be closed on the weekends.
So again, I don't think we can prove anything either way here, and I'm not so sure about "the vast majority of people having trusted mechanics", but I really don't think that the vast majority of car owners use dealerships for all their service. I think that people use them when their car is brand-new (because it's covered by warranty), and I think owners of not-too-old luxury brands (BWM, etc.) probably use dealerships more often, however I think people who own cars that are 10+ years old probably rarely use dealerships, if ever. People who have less money to spend on cars, and who buy used cars (or keep cars a long time) I believe are naturally going to look for better deals for car service, and that's going to rule out stealerships very quickly.
As for YourMechanic, I hadn't heard of that, but it sounds like a great idea. But if it's successful, I think that shows that a lot of people want a trusted (non-dealership) mechanic, even if they don't currently have one. Also, don't forget, a lot of people these days are more mobile, and move around from time to time, so they'll need a new mechanic when they move.
But with all that said, in the broader conversation I'd say I was wrong. Even if you don't have a trusted independent mechanic more people prefer that option, even if they use a different one every time, over the dealership.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/12/survey-consu...
I would disagree, there have been a lot of electric car hotrods and DIY innovation happening for years, like the White Zombie and others linked below:
http://news.discovery.com/autos/drive/worlds-fastest-electri...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079928_fastest-electric...
http://jalopnik.com/the-electric-converted-1963-zelectric-vw...
More: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/#/forumsite/20977
You've clearly never been behind the wheel of a Tesla. Please go drive one. Emissions were literally the very last reason for buying the car for me.
I completely get that there are irrational reasons for buying things, not least of which is "OMG teh shiny future!!1!", but these aren't really suitable for debate here because they're so hugely subjective.
Edit: having read through entire TFA: Tesla will even refuse to sell you parts, and call you talking about industrial espionage, if you try and tinker with their cars. Seriously, WTF?
Well, here in Australia, MB and BMW are ripping their customers off with prices nearly TRIPLE the US price. Tesla has priced their Model S similarly to US. So yet another reason, to add to the excellent list already posted, is the better pricing.
On top of that, I have no idea why you think Teslas lack tactile feedback (or at least are worse than BMW 7s), are only good in straight line speed, or have headspace problems in the back if you are 5'8".
Nonsense. You need tactile feedback while driving. You will not be using the center console while driving. You will not even be looking at it. All of the stuff you need while driving is tactile.
> trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line
LOL. I sense hurt feelings.
> no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed out
Why would it need an OBD-2 port when it has an API?
http://docs.timdorr.apiary.io/#
> bad resale value as this article points out
Article is wrong. The prices for used vehicles are quite good. Confirm yourself.
> literally having your head touch the car roof if you're over five foot eight and sitting in the back
Get a Model X if Model S is too small for you.
> can you please give us a rational reason except zero tailpipe emissions for buying a Model S over, say, a Mercedes S-class or a BMW 7-series?
I'm not a huge fan on the S, prefer the X.
1. Twice the storage of an ICE vehicle. No engine block = FRUNK.
2. Safety. It is the safest vehicle on the road. Period. Because there is no engine block slamming in your face during a front-end collision.
3. I never have to go to a dirty gas station again. I fill up at home.
4. No oil changes. No transmission failures. Fewer moving parts = less maintenance needed.
5. American designed, American built, no $$$ going to questionable oil interests.
6. That center console? Fucking awesome. Enjoy your 8 inch joke.
7. Over-The-Air software updates that actually add useful features. No, I don't need to go to the service center to update my software. LOL!
8. It drives itself? Autopilot! Nice!
9. It parks itself. Even parallel parking. Will even open the garage, drive itself in, and then close the garage after itself.
10. Supercharger network. Free juice all over the country and beyond. Fills up in 20-30 min.
I can keep going, but I think you get the gist.
> Tesla will even refuse to sell you parts
Ok. Ever hear of eBay?
> call you talking about industrial espionage, if you try and tinker with their cars
Don't fuck with cars that drive themselves. Please.
> Seriously, WTF?
I wouldn't mind having more control over software updates and generally having more control over the vehicle, but I understand why they made the decisions they did. If you don't, it's because you were never driven in an autonomous vehicle.
Tesla FTW.
> LOL. I sense hurt feelings.
A Model S weighs something like 4700lbs, depending on battery? I suppose it depends on one's definition of "fast car", but I personally consider more than straight line performance, and lighter cars have a distinct advantage. I agree with Lotus's Colin Chapman: "performance through low weight".
> > no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed out
> Why would it need an OBD-2 port when it has an API? http://docs.timdorr.apiary.io/#
Because OBD-2 is a standard with an entire ecosystem built around it.
> 2. Safety. It is the safest vehicle on the road. Period. Because there is no engine block slamming in your face during a front-end collision.
That is an advantage (also, it's on the heavy side and mass helps a lot) and it certainly tests well in crashes. IIHS statistics for injury and medical payments don't however support your statement that it is the "safest vehicle on the road". Porsche's 911 and Boxster have lower Personal Injury Claim frequencies (and the Boxster doesn't even have a roof!).
> 4. No oil changes. No transmission failures. Fewer moving parts = less maintenance needed.
There might be less maintenance needed on some of the drivetrain leading to a more convenient service interval, but there still is maintenance (tires, brakes, brake fluid, HVAC, battery, suspension, steering, etc.) to be done, and the longer service interval might make it more likely for problems to increase in severity before they're noticed. It's kind of a moot point, modern cars have overall excellent reliability on the drivetrain; luxury cars tend to have problems with the electrical system and associated accessories, especially after the lease period is up, and Tesla is no different.
> 5. American designed, American built, no $$$ going to questionable oil interests.
Overall design and final assembly, perhaps, but are you saying that the subsystem vendors are American too, to some degree larger than other manufacturers?
> 10. Supercharger network. Free juice all over the country and beyond. Fills up in 20-30 min.
It's not free, it's incorporated into the cost of the purchase.
My first thought at this statistic was to wonder if these drivers are less likely to survive to file...
What? Fast means fast. The Model S goes fast. It has better performance than cars it competes with, like BMW 5/7 series, etc.
Is it the fastest car? No. And why would it need to be? It's a luxury sedan, not a race car.
> Because OBD-2 is a standard with an entire ecosystem built around it.
It's an absolutely horrible standard and that entire ecosystem should die. Every car should have an open API that is easily accessible using any computer, rather than specialized equipment.
> IIHS statistics for injury and medical payments don't however support your statement that it is the "safest vehicle on the road".
Has anyone actually ever died in a Tesla? I believe one person did.
http://electrek.co/2015/12/22/man-dies-tesla-model-s-crash-d...
That was a couple of months ago. He was hit by a dump truck.
> luxury cars tend to have problems with the electrical system and associated accessories, especially after the lease period is up, and Tesla is no different.
I'll give you that one.
> but are you saying that the subsystem vendors are American too, to some degree larger than other manufacturers?
Yes. Because Elon Musk is pulling a Henry Ford. They're more vertically integrated than any other car company. I'm not sure that's a good thing ... but it does support my point.
> It's not free, it's incorporated into the cost of the purchase.
Well, yeah. Someone has to pay for it to get built and to maintain it. It's free in the sense that I don't have to explicitly pay for it. It's just included and I can use it as much as I want.
The Model S and Model X are excellent cars. Not perfect, but excellent. There's a reason they're eating up the entire luxury market.
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/02/06/can-you-gue...
This is the excellent statement but coupled with the threat of being kicked off the warranty (which means no repairs whatsoever since no independent shops) and being assaulted by lawyers with charges of industrial espionage if you veer a little to the left or to the right does not exactly make it a model citizen. Hacking culture is all about doing things manufacturer did not think of. Yes, sometimes that can lead to screw-ups, including ones worthy of voiding the warranty, but so far it seems like Tesla is in full "besieged castle" mode, and even docs you mention are unofficial - which means a) they could change anytime and b) you could be charged with espionage for using it anyway.
It goes fast in a straight line, perhaps better than it's competitors. It's also portly compared to some of it's competitors, and not as nimble. Fast in a straight line is boring.
> It's an absolutely horrible standard and that entire ecosystem should die. Every car should have an open API that is easily accessible using any computer, rather than specialized equipment.
OBD-2 certainly has its warts, but it's an interoperable industry standard. I have a hard time believing that an OBD-3 or a legacy-free de novo interoperable standard would be any less wart-free. Some warts come from interoperability compromises, some from the industrial constraints, some from the bureaucracy. I'll take an interoperable standard over any proprietary API, no matter how nice that API might be.
> Has anyone actually ever died in a Tesla? I believe one person did.
Amazingly, this is not a unique feat! There's actually a growing list of cars that are without recorded deaths: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/sr/statusreport/article/50/1/1
> Yes. Because Elon Musk is pulling a Henry Ford. They're more vertically integrated than any other car company. I'm not sure that's a good thing ... but it does support my point.
I don't see any basis for your claim that Tesla is more vertically integrated than any other car company, and I don't buy it. A DDG search pulled up this short list of Tesla subsystem vendors, and there are plenty that are obviously not 'Murican: http://moneymorning.com/2014/05/08/tesla-suppliers-list-thes...
In fact, Monroney stickers I see online put the domestic parts content of a Tesla Model S at 50%, here's one: http://www.midway-group.com/inventory/2015-tesla-model-s-p85...
> Well, yeah. Someone has to pay for it to get built and to maintain it. It's free in the sense that I don't have to explicitly pay for it. It's just included and I can use it as much as I want.
A DDG search showed that some earlier Model S had a $2000 option to gain access to the Supercharger network, so that would seem to be a good estimate for the cost. The Monroney above shows it as "included", which I would say counts as explicit even though the price isn't transparent.
> The Model S and Model X are excellent cars. Not perfect, but excellent. There's a reason they're eating up the entire luxury market.
They certainly have a dedicated fanbase that should be the envy of any car company, and I understand why they are popular as peppy urban people movers. I personally find them soulless, but Tesla drivers would probably find the cars I enjoy to be vulgar and uncomfortable :)
As to the "eating up the entire market" article, my criticism there is that the other luxury marques have a more diverse product line with considerable overlap. Saying that the Model S is the single best selling car model in that grouping isn't informative if the cohort who would consider a Model S are buying a mixture of BMW models.
Right, because nobody has ever adjusted the air conditioning or radio while driving...
There's a button on the wheel you press for voice commands ...
I don't see what that has to do with America, except for 'Murica f'yeah
> 7. Over-The-Air software updates that actually add useful features. No, I don't need to go to the service center to update my software. LOL!
ROFL
> 8. It drives itself? Autopilot! Nice!
Don't many cars have that to the limited degree already allowed by law?
I enjoy buying locally built products when possible, especially when those products are superior to anything else available.
> ROFL
Get off the floor and tell me what's so funny.
> Don't many cars have that to the limited degree already allowed by law?
No. Model S and Model X are the only cars available that drive themselves. Some other cars have cruise control that will stay within the lane, but it won't change lanes, break, or accelerate based on traffic conditions.
Supporting my argument. Tesla sits on an encrypted VPN, good luck with that. Maybe if you break into Tesla HQ?
You're better off going after the bluetooth (the key fobs/car are bluetooth) or NFC (the key fobs/car have NFC in case batteries die in fobs). There's also an ethernet port of sorts in the vehicle, although it has been disconnected with latest firmware.
Anyway, when it comes to Tesla, you'll have better chances of hacking into it with physical access. You are definitely not getting access to my car with "wifi".
Well, if you say so. Still, what about the locally built products? Oil isn't the only import needed for a traditional car.
The ethernet port, bluetooth/NFC key fobs all the chips, are made in china no doubt, maybe even many engine parts. Recources are exploited from mines outside America under bad conditions. The energy to load the battery is generated partially from fracked fossil fuel. America supports Saudis for a bit more than just oil and they sure don't care what the tax money was generated from. * In 2014, about 27% of the petroleum consumed by the United States was imported from foreign countries.* [1]. Half the American designers are probably immigrated from India and China.
Our visions of the great US of A diverge a little.
Why would any web site support HTTP when you can use their proprietary protocol, only unofficially documented by some random dude by reverse engineering.
If you like the way a high-end electric car drives, there's little comparison between a Model S and the BMW/Benz.
And Tesla has completely changed the paradigm of car design and manufacturing. The fact that it can add self-driving to its cars with an over-the-air software update is amazing.
People might buy for the zero emissions but they stay for the ride.
People at hacking LEAFs already.
On the other hand, it could just be that those who want to really own their cars would not consider buying a Tesla anyway, and those who have the skills are too scared of the legal aspects. I think at the moment, electric cars are still somewhat niche and don't really appeal to the demographic who would be modding their cars. The aftermarket community for existing cars basically doesn't care about emissions --- one of the biggest attractions of an electric. As a bit of a car-geek myself, I'll admit that electrics are rather "boring" and for the same reason I'm not so interested in the newer super-computerised vehicles either; it's the noisy, smelly, smoky, aggressive, obnoxious-mechanical-monster nature of petrol/diesel engines that's the really "fun" part. Batteries, electronics, and motors just don't evoke quite the same feeling.