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Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by megablast on Monday February 29, 2016 @07:04PM (#11199800)
I would rather a bus any day. Easier to see, move slowly, less dangerously, less off them, more predictable, and mostly pretty courteous. Completely unlike drivers.
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by lucaspiller on Monday February 29, 2016 @11:32PM (#11200794)
When I was in London a few years ago I used to cycle to work and the buses were the worse. Taxis would beep or gesture at you, but at least they gave you space.

One time I was stopped at a set of traffic lights waiting for them to turn green. It was on a tight bend and I was about 20cm from the line, and 50cm from the inside of the road. A bus came up and decided for whatever reason he had to get in front of me (even though there was a stop directly on the other side of the junction). There was enough space for a car, but definitely not for a bus as it was on a bend.

He slowly kept creeping forward, and the side of the bus kept getting closer and closer. I starting banging on the window as he got next to me, but no he kept going. I was far enough back that I was out of his blind spot. In the end I had to move onto the pavement.

I then walked to the front and banged on the door, gave him a few choice words and the driver just shrugged.

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by brandur on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @03:56AM (#11201544)
I see this sort of strong arming happening in San Francisco pretty frequently. It all makes a lot more sense when you consider that the drivers know that even they accidentally push it a little too far and kill someone, there won't be any serious repercussion [1] [2].

[1] http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/03/02/muni-driver-acqu...

[2] http://hoodline.com/2015/10/muni-bus-hits-kills-cyclist-on-m...

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by lmm on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @05:16AM (#11201833)
Car drivers get away with killing people as well though.
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by sooheon on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @07:53AM (#11202242)
Maybe slightly less of a professional desensitization to the potential to kill another?
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by shawabawa3 on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @07:33AM (#11202180)
I'm not sure if much has changed, but I cycle daily through central London and buses are great. Usually give plenty of space and never try and run you over on left turns.

The worst in my experience are trucks, and even more so, pedestrians (almost every day I have to pre-emptively break before someone walks into the road without looking)

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by dspillett on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @10:14AM (#11203068)
I don't know about London specifically but with regard to cyclists I get the impression that bus and lorry drivers have become more careful these days for one reason: the growing number of cyclists with cameras mounted on their bikes or helmets, and in cities even more so due to the number of CCTV cameras that could also catch dangerous behaviour. Furthermore some buses in bad areas have their own cameras watching the road recording in case of dispute (hooked to the same recording equipment that records inside the bus to capture events where passengers attack each other or the driver).

The average bus and lorry driver always was pretty safe on the roads and courteous with it, of course. They haven't changed.

But there were a lot of idiots out there in all forms of transport who were not so careful and got away with it because "who was going to know?". If it came to an argument it was the cyclist's word against theirs and if it came to court they could threaten to sue for damage to professional reputation if the case was lost by the cyclist. Now with a helmet cam the cyclist has evidence so it isn't just word against word. In most jurisdictions a single helmet cam recording is not sufficient for a prosecution (and may even not be directly admissible as evidence in court) but more than one complaint is usually enough for the bus/lorry company to investigate further (which they will as there are potential fines for not and in some places that threat has teeth) and evidence from official CCTV and on-bus recorders is usually admissible (the former because it is operated by the authorities, the latter because the driver has consented to being recorded). If there is a chance you will get caught and successfully charged with dangerous driving (or the lesser offence of driving without due care and attention) then bad/aggressive/otherwise-unsafe drivers are likely to put more effort into being less bad as it can get them reprimanded by their employer, possibly sacked, possible prosecuted, and it can harm their ability to get driving jobs in future.

So the average carefulness of large vehicle drivers is improving because of monitoring, the perceived average even more so because we never notice the good drivers as much so the bad ones look more statistically relevant than they might actually be.

I have had a "near death incident" or two, so the situation is still far from perfect, but these days I see more complaints about large cars (SUV types and people carriers) and private vans, than buses or lorries.

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by lmm on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @07:42AM (#11202207)
I cycled through London (not the absolute centre) until a year ago and found the lorries fine, they're courteous and give you a lot of space (much more than the buses, who were worse than cars - cars would give you space, whereas buses seemed to pretend you didn't exist). Worst of all was people-carriers, especially around start/end of school hours.
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by nickkell on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @07:04PM (#11207202)
The pedestrians here terrify me. Cyclists get a lot of stick because there are a few bad apples that ignore red lights, but I'd say the vast majority of pedestrians don't give a second thought about walking into the road on a red light. The worst time for me is when I'm cycling past a stationary queue of cars and people assume that because the cars aren't moving, that nothing else could possibly be travelling along the road!
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by vhold on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @07:39PM (#11207376)
Same with MUNI in San Francisco, I can have a bright flashing light, be in the bike lane, and be able to see the driver in their sideview mirror, and they'll just drift over without ever even glancing in the mirror and almost kill me. As expensive and trouble prone as street cars can seem, it's one thing I really like about them, they stay on their tracks.

I completely avoid ever being next to them now, I'll just stop and wait if there's any chance

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by seizethecheese on Monday February 29, 2016 @08:57PM (#11200305)
> move slowly, less dangerously

f = ma. The bus is considerably more dangerous than a car, even while traveling at a significantly lower speed. As the parent comment noted, there are certainly some aggressive bus drivers out there as well.

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by qwyxzy on Monday February 29, 2016 @09:26PM (#11200414)
Nitpick: The bus is more dangerous because it has more momentum (m • v), not necessarily more force.
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by colanderman on Monday February 29, 2016 @11:46PM (#11200837)
Actually neither of those matter much anyway. The energy transferred is primarily a function of the velocity difference (squared) and the mass of the lighter of the two objects. That is, a pedestrian will experience a collision with a car and with a bus in much the same way.

If the two objects are close to the same mass, i.e. car vs. car, the energy transfer will be reduced by up to 75%, but otherwise the mass of the larger object is immaterial. That is, a car-car collision at 60 MPH does equal damage as a bus-car collision at 30 MPH.

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by lultimouomo on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @11:08AM (#11203566)
This.

Extreme example: a 1000 ton freight train "hitting" you at 0.1km/h it's not doing the same damage as a 1000kg car hitting you at 100km/h.

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by waterhouse on Monday February 29, 2016 @11:22PM (#11200763)
Double nitpick: I think kinetic energy is actually the more relevant quantity. Citation after a bit of googling: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/141779/what-cause...
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by pdkl95 on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @02:55AM (#11201331)
This is correct. My grandfather was a physicist who reconstructed some of the nastier accidents in CA. He was always looking for two values for most situations: delta-v, and (mv^2)/2. The 'v' being the delta-v of the two vehicles when they collided. The damage done will generally be a function of the kinetic energy that hit it.

Note that this implies that unless there are other dangerous road conditions (fog, ice, etc), the safest speed is "the same speed as everybody else" so the delta-v is minimized.

Fun note for HN: he had software built for DOS that I helped him get running in dosbox so he could run it on a modern computer. It would reconstruct the motion of the vehicles from the final resting positions and the depth of the dents. working backwards from the implied kinetic energy. Apparently the DOS version was a port of his original FORTRAN source... on punch cards.

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by spectre256 on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @07:06AM (#11202116)
Sounds like some software that belongs in the internet archive, if it's possible!
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by pdkl95 on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @08:46AM (#11202498)
That's a good idea! I'll have to talk to my grandfather about it.
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by eru on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @05:29PM (#11206642)
And on something like github, for people to experiment with.
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by cowardlydragon on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @12:08PM (#11204140)
Nitpick: isn't it the kinetic energy M x V x V that is dangerous as the square of velocity?
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by CWuestefeld on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @09:51AM (#11202888)
The bus is considerably more dangerous than a car, even while traveling at a significantly lower speed.

The potential damage may be greater, but significantly lower speeds creates a much greater risk of some accident. All things considered, then, it's not clear what's worse at the bottom line.

The chance of an accident is greatly increased when vehicles are traveling at very different speeds. See, for example, http://priceonomics.com/is-every-speed-limit-too-low/

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by x3n0ph3n3 on Monday February 29, 2016 @08:48PM (#11200276)
You would rather what a bus?
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by lstamour on Monday February 29, 2016 @11:57PM (#11200866)
rather = prefer, here. As in the choice between self driving cars and buses.
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by CWuestefeld on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @10:00AM (#11202957)
I was also confused, and I'm a native speaker. Understanding that "rather" means "prefer" is obvious.

The sentence could be read as "I prefer to be on the road with a bus since I think it's safer". Or it could be "choosing what's most dangerous, I'd rather say it's a bus".

It's also not clear what the perspective of the speaker is. It might be that a bus is safer for the rider, but more dangerous for cars around it. So would he rather be on board a bus, or rather on the road with a bus?

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by trelltron on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @10:36AM (#11203259)
I have no idea how you could get that second interpretation from what he said. And the perspective is clearly inherited from the parent comment, who didn't mention being "on board" a bus, just "on the road with" a bus.

No ambiguity in that comment that I can see.

EDIT: I guess the use of rather in this context could be a colloquialism?

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by bennyg on Monday February 29, 2016 @11:12PM (#11200736)
You knew what he/she was trying to say...
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by craigmccaskill on Monday February 29, 2016 @11:41PM (#11200826)
Personally, I don't and I'm a native English speaker. I doubt many who weren't would have any chance of deciphering the meaning here either.
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by jcrawfordor on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @02:38AM (#11201272)
I see this usage fairly regularly. I'm not 100% certain of this, but I think it might be more common in Britain than America.
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by ridgeguy on Monday February 29, 2016 @11:56PM (#11200860)
It's just an ellipsis. Or, as my first Google hit said:

"the omission from speech or writing of a word or words that are superfluous or able to be understood from contextual clues."

So: I would rather [have] a bus any day.

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by gdy on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @05:10AM (#11201805)
Is "I would rather you did..." odd too? Not a native speaker here :)
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by EdwardDiego on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @06:26AM (#11202012)
> Personally, I don't

That's more on you than the OP. It's hardly an unknown phrasing.

Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by x3n0ph3n3 on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @09:03PM (#11207660)
Actually, I didn't. It's an odd word choice, and 'prefer' would have made more sense. Rather is typically used in conjunction with another verb, while prefer isn't.
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by bitshepherd on Monday February 29, 2016 @10:45PM (#11200660)
Except in the Bay Area, where bus drivers move those slow, more predictable machines as if they were sports cars.
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by jonlucc on Monday February 29, 2016 @11:53PM (#11200854)
The same goes for Chicago, where busses are longer, but articulated in the middle for maneuverability. They drive just like the taxi drivers there, and that isn't a compliment.
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by bitshepherd on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @10:53AM (#11203427)
We have the long, articulated busses, too. The drivers also drive those as if they were behind the wheel of a sports car.
Re:Google says self-driving car hits municipal bus in minor ... by imtringued on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @04:40AM (#11201718)
I don't life in the US but one time the bus driver decided to overtake a motorcycle that was properly driving at the current speed limit. The motorcyclist was effectively trapped by a 20m long bus.