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Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by mmanfrin on Friday February 19, 2016 @04:33PM (#11136798)
Semi related question: One has to be an accredited (i.e. wealthy) investor to invest in startups, but this does not apply to employees exercising options. Does that mean that employees who do not meet the wealth requirements to be accredited are only ever able to sell ownership, and only to accredited investors?
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by nradov on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:53PM (#11137366)
The dirty little secret is that most of those secondary market exchanges don't really verify accredited investor status. They just do the bare minimum to check off the boxes and ensure SEC compliance. Acquaintances of mine were able to purchase shares by simply lying about their incomes and assets.
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by prostoalex on Saturday February 20, 2016 @12:08AM (#11138955)
That is correct, the reason for such regulation is depicted in the movie "Wolf of Wall Street", where Florida grandmas are being pitched some "incredible opportunities".

If you're a seller and you did not verify investor accreditation, you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit when things go bad with the investment - what if the buyer comes back and claims he was defrauded and duped into buying shaky securities?

The broker participating in such transaction, in theory, has a chance of having their license revoked due to participation in alleged fraud.

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by jluxenberg on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:05PM (#11137009)
Side note: You're considered an "accredited investor" if you made $200k/year in each of the prior two years and expect a similar income in the current year. https://www.investor.gov/news-alerts/investor-bulletins/inve...

So, not necessarily just "wealthy" individuals.

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by personjerry on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:09PM (#11137044)
That's pretty wealthy by most standards, isn't it?
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by colinbartlett on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:21PM (#11137122)
I think the point was that you don't necessary need wealth (assets) for which the threshold is $1 USD Million excluding the value of your primary residence.

You can instead have a high income (the $200k mentioned) and zero wealth. I suspect that many more people qualify as accredited under the income requirement than qualify under the asset requirement.

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by ddlatham on Friday February 19, 2016 @07:43PM (#11137955)
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by TuringNYC on Saturday February 20, 2016 @04:38PM (#11142073)
Yes, except in places like SF. That sort of income wont afford you more than a 1br (assuming you want to buy.)
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by pjlegato on Friday February 19, 2016 @08:39PM (#11138195)
Yes, though in San Francisco it isn't, because the cost of living is so insanely high.
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by ojbyrne on Friday February 19, 2016 @06:05PM (#11137443)
Additional side note: if you're married, it's a total of $300k/year for the household.
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by ZoF on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:16PM (#11137085)
Heh, I'm not 'poor' but how in the hell is 199k/year not 'wealthy'?
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by hyperliner on Friday February 19, 2016 @06:04PM (#11137437)
http://www.newblackmaninexile.net/2011/10/they-aint-wealthy-...

"Shaq is rich; the white man that signs his check is wealthy. Here you go Shaq, go buy yourself a bouncing car. Bling-Bling . . . . I ain’t talking bout Oprah, I’m talking about Bill Gates. OK!. If Bill Gates woke up tomorrow with Oprah’s money, he would jump out a …window. I’m not talking about rich, I’m talking about wealthy

- Chris Rock"

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by _yosefk on Saturday February 20, 2016 @12:09PM (#11140890)
Google says Oprah's net worth is $3G, and Shaq's is $350M. If neither is "wealthy", then I guess the word is reserved for Bill Gates (but not that "white man signing Shaq's check", in all likelihood.)

If he weren't a comedian, I'd say Chris Rock is so full of shit it's not even funny, but I guess they're two separate things (meaning that in this instance he's objectively full of shit, but that has nothing to do with him being subjectively not funny to me; there are other comedians who're just as full of shit, but I still find them funny.)

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by st3v3r on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:19PM (#11137110)
You live in downtown Manhattan.
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by mmanfrin on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:28PM (#11137190)
$200k in Manhattan puts you above 84% of people living in Manhattan.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/mar/...

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by hirsin on Friday February 19, 2016 @06:43PM (#11137662)
But puts you in the top 1.5% nationwide. So, 10x worse off percentage wise, I'd believe that doesn't feel wealthy or even rich. Bad-stats-wise, between 1 in 6 and 1 in 7 people you meet would earn more, compared to 1 in 65 or so elsewhere.
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by CydeWeys on Friday February 19, 2016 @06:07PM (#11137457)
Sure, but "wealthy" doesn't just mean the top quintile. "Wealthy" is a more exclusive club than that. When I think "wealthy", I'm thinking top 1%.

But this is one of those words that should probably be set aside for the purposes of debate in favor of something more specific, because arguing over the definition of a term that doesn't actually have a standard definition isn't terribly productive.

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by ArkyBeagle on Friday February 19, 2016 @07:34PM (#11137900)
Because stocks are not flows.
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by zardo on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:14PM (#11137072)
So... "incomey" individuals then?
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by tajen on Saturday February 20, 2016 @03:41AM (#11139418)
The 5% percentile of US population in terms of yearly income.
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by atom-morgan on Friday February 19, 2016 @06:32PM (#11137600)
Investors are just like everyone else. They don't want competition.
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by dhj on Friday February 19, 2016 @04:45PM (#11136884)
If the company is private then employees exercising options generally (always?) have clauses that restrict them from selling that stock whether they are accredited investors or not. Not a lawyer, but I think there may be two reasons: 1) prevent covert takeover from the original founders 2) prevent a general market for private companies (before IPO). IPO involves a lot of regulatory overhead to confirm full disclosure. I think the restriction is to maintain control, but it may be a legal requirement before public market.

In other words you can't sell except as part of a board approved sale of the company or a public offering. I think opportunities to buy are based on new issuance of stock (for accredited investors) not based on trades of existing stock.

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by shimon on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:03PM (#11136987)
I too assumed this limitation was widespread. But if unicorns are high-valued private companies, and there is a secondary market for their stock, then surely some holders are not restricted this way.

Anyone know why / what triggers that? When is it typical for stock granted to employees to actually be resellable?

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by mavelikara on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:15PM (#11137081)
Depends on the terms under which the employee is issued stock. From a 2014 article[1]:

    Two months ago, an early Uber employee thought that he had found a buyer for 
    his vested stock, at $200 per share. But when his agent tried to seal the deal,
    Uber refused to sign off on the transfer. Instead, it offered to buy back the
    shares for around $135 a piece, which is within the same price range that Google
    Ventures and TPG Capital had paid to invest in Uber the previous July. Take it or
    hold it.

    The employee also learned that Uber had amended its bylaws more than a year
    earlier, in order to restrict unapproved secondary sales. It was unclear if the
    bylaw change actually applied to shareholders who had not been party to the vote —
    lawyers seem to disagree on this point of Delaware law — but Uber threatened
    litigation if he tried to proceed. So he held. The financial and reputational
    hassles of a lawsuit would have just been too much, even if he had won.
[1]: http://fortune.com/2014/06/20/uber-plays-hardball-with-early...
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by Eridrus on Saturday February 20, 2016 @12:19PM (#11140937)
The ability for a company to force you to take a lower price is new to me. Besides Uber, has anyone heard of this happening elsewhere?
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by shostack on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:41PM (#11137275)
Really interesting, thanks for sharing.

Does this generally piss off the employer? I wonder if the employee faced any sort of retaliation or anything from this.

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by mavelikara on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:54PM (#11137371)
> Does this generally piss off the employer? I wonder if the employee faced any sort of retaliation or anything from this.

No, it should not piss off any employer!

The equity that is offered to you to as part of your employment is remuneration for your efforts. The employer should not be upset at you for wanting to convert that to cash. It is true that the employer might not want their stock to go to outside parties. In that case, they should arrange for alternate arrangements (buybacks, employee-liquidity in funding rounds etc). But you are not doing anything inherently unethical to warrant any retaliation.

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by djhn on Friday February 19, 2016 @06:39PM (#11137645)
I completely agree with you, but this isn't mutually exclusive with facing retaliation (in terms of internal politics, for instance.)
Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by shostack on Friday February 19, 2016 @07:09PM (#11137762)
That's more to the point I was getting at. There's the legal situation, and then the political one. Selling shares in a private company could raise some red flags from management thinking an employee wants to cash out and bail, management worried about the perception of the company's health (internally and externally), management concerns about loss of control, etc.

All reasons why managers might make life difficult for said employee after the fact.

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by prostoalex on Saturday February 20, 2016 @12:13AM (#11138974)
They generally don't want their cap table to explode with randos, and if there's access to sensitive information, they obviously don't want the cases where unscrupulous party buys shares just to feed that data to competitors.

With that said, it's obviously in their interest to provide some liquidity to avoid their long-time employees from defecting to GOOG or NFLX or FB, which reward with perfectly liquid stock grants, so in case of demand from the buy-side an employer would orchestrate a secondary market transaction. On the buy side in most cases you'd see an SPV managed by the VC who invested in previous rounds (which helps with keeping the cap table low).

Ironically, for smaller VCs entire economics of their firms are based on these SPVs (which sometimes charge upwards of 2% management fee on top of 20% carry - and that's for a chunk shares sitting quietly doing nothing).

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by pjlegato on Friday February 19, 2016 @08:43PM (#11138220)
More typically, the company has the "right of first refusal" -- when a stockholder has an outside offer, they are first required to let the company buy their stock back at the price that the outsider is offering before selling to an outsider.

This is both to maintain control and to avoid having more than 500 shareholders, which triggers all kinds of additional regulations.

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by throw2192015 on Friday February 19, 2016 @11:59PM (#11138934)
> This is both to maintain control and to avoid having more than 500 shareholders, which triggers all kinds of additional regulations.

I _think_ the JOBS Act of 2012 increased this to 2000 instead of 500.

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by thwarted on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:31PM (#11137224)
1) prevent covert takeover from the original founders

Wouldn't this be more reliable to do by keeping control via different classes of stock and or limiting the total size of the employee option pool to some significantly less percentage than the founders have? What's the most common/recommended size of the employee option pool (I want to say I've heard it is like 5-15% depending on the age of the company)?

Re:Secondary shops flooded with unicorn sellers by ska on Friday February 19, 2016 @04:42PM (#11136864)
This depends on jurisdiction of course, but employees may also be able to invest, even if they don't meet the requirements.

It's not easy for an employee to get access to a secondary market anyway, but yes they should also be enforcing the transaction rules.