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Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by rimantas on Sunday February 07, 2016 @04:58PM (#11055106)

  > this guy wasn't really a migrant 
He was migrant by defintion. Not a refugee though.

  > he was pretty close-minded in regards to integrating into a new
  > culture/diet/environment
I wonder, what is the percentage of those hundreds of thousands who do not have the same mindset. Alas, the thinking of those pro-Europet-taking-in-refugees is somewhere along the lines:

  1. Take in all the refugess
  2. ...
  3. Integration done.
There is no magic for the step 2. And there is the big misundrestanding how deep the difference between the cultures is. Also, the not undrestanding that Islam is not just religion, is the way of life—and the way not very much in agreement with the western one. Especially when the western way is considered subpar and the wrong one. Good luck in thinking that a few lecutres on European values will change all that.
Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by ktRolster on Sunday February 07, 2016 @06:40PM (#11055566)

  > 2. ...
If they want to be integrated, it would be really helpful if they learned Finnish. The first guy in the article said he spent most of his time in the gym, and hanging out with other Iraqis, which isn't really going to help with integration.

Learning Finnish won't solve every problem of integration, but without it, I would suggest that integration is impossible.

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by a_bonobo on Sunday February 07, 2016 @09:37PM (#11056106)
> If they want to be integrated, it would be really helpful if they learned Finnish. The first guy in the article said he spent most of his time in the gym, and hanging out with other Iraqis, which isn't really going to help with integration.

This is such an important point - I'm German, living in Australia, and the Germans here tend to hang out almost exclusively with other Germans, same goes for the Chinese etc. I haven't yet seen a good solution for that "insulation" - It takes real effort and motivation to step outside of your comfort zone, you can't force people to do so, they'll quickly bounce back.

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by tajen on Monday February 08, 2016 @02:48AM (#11056843)
Germans in Australia do speak English. Also, I don't think the number of Germans who mostly meet Germans everyday is big. All my German (and French, and Russian) friends in Australia had girlfriends from other places. But sorry, communautarism is visible, generalizations over one's communautarism is frequent but communautarism itself isn't that much.
Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by developer2 on Monday February 08, 2016 @12:52AM (#11056547)
This isn't a surprise. There's a reason large cities have Chinatown, Little Italy, etc. Immigrants are more comfortable keeping their lives mostly within their own community that shares the same language and cultural elements. While I don't think it's all that healthy to avoid integrating with the society you move into, it's understandable to see people take the easy/comfortable route. Hell, I'd probably wind up doing the same.

I have a Greek acquaintance who lives in my city's unofficial Greek neighbourhood. Everything from groceries to bakeries and cafés, it's all Greek and he doesn't like to stray much from his routine in these shops. All the owners and patrons know each other personally. They get to feel like they're still back home. It keeps them sheltered a bit too much from the rest of us, but hey - they have a real community versus me that doesn't know the first name of anyone that serves me in any of the shops I frequent.

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by tluyben2 on Monday February 08, 2016 @02:04AM (#11056736)
People move somewhere for a reason: most migrants (they are white so they are usually referred to as expats) in my neigborhood in south Spain are Brits who came for the weather and low prices: a lot of them simply want to live in a cheaper and sunnier UK. They do not want to integrate as that is not why they came. Same for the Germans; we have an entire town where everything is in German. Some come for the different lifestyle and Spanish culture; those integrate fast but it is a minority.
Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by noobermin on Sunday February 07, 2016 @11:22PM (#11056315)
This is a more general phenomenom, like tends to hang out with like, not necessarily out of bigotry towards the un-likes, but just out of familiarity. It's really "seperate but equal" all over again.

Honestly, it just comes down to being open minded, which has to happen on an individual level. I'm open minded by necessity, because there are very few of my race in the USA, much less my current city.

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by fsloth on Monday February 08, 2016 @12:37AM (#11056513)
I suppose typically first generation migrants seldom adjust culturally fully to their home country, and only the second generation become truly native?
Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by kfk on Monday February 08, 2016 @05:38AM (#11057374)
Integrated to what exactly? You are never going to be integrated with people that want you to speak the local language, even if you do speak it. The thing is, once you leave your country, you are an expat, an expat doesn't do well with people that want to force their local/close minded way of doing things on you.

There are values that are the same across all Europe and those should be the focus of integration. Learning local language is not one of them.

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by Someone on Sunday February 07, 2016 @07:38PM (#11055789)
I don't know how Finland handles asylum seekers, but chances are they keep them together while they determine whether they are refugees, rather than economic migrants. If so, his choice was more or less between hanging out with Syrians, Somali, or other Iraqis, neither of which spoke Finnish.

Also, chances are Finland doesn't teach asylum seekers Finnish while they await that verdict. That makes sense if that process doesn't take much time, but it is hard to make due process take little time if there suddenly are many asylum seekers.

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by seivan on Sunday February 07, 2016 @05:08PM (#11055155)
Lee Kuan Yew has had the same experience with the close mindedness of certain cultures and being hard to integrate. My parents noticed the same with people from the same countries as them. Even I noticed early on in school how hard it was for teachers to mention certain progressive ideas without pissing off a bunch guys in my class. I never gave it a second thought until recently.

It's an uphill battle for any country that relies on sweeping issues under the rug instead of managing them up front.

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by jpatokal on Sunday February 07, 2016 @06:36PM (#11055544)
I presume you're referring to Lee's comments about Malay Muslims in Singapore? http://www.singapore-window.org/sw99/90915loy.htm

If you're going to talk about "integration" (read: assimilation), it's worth remembering that they were there first, and it's the Chinese immigrants who are now the majority that has sidelined them.

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by seivan on Monday February 08, 2016 @02:59AM (#11056874)
I still call it integration as it was predominantly secular before a surge of Wahhabism from oil, now there is a divide.

You can look into Iran, Iraq and even Afghanistan. Unfortunately they didn't have a Lee Kuan Yew to draw in the line. My mum told me how no one cared about Halal only sections in Iran, my dad said the same about Iraq even though they would identify as muslims.

http://youtu.be/1KDjjXUx9bY

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by manicdee on Sunday February 07, 2016 @06:32PM (#11055530)
Step 2 in Australia after WW2 was basically: - education - counselling - socialising

It worked well enough for the influx of Vietnamese refugees too.

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by nazgob on Sunday February 07, 2016 @06:39PM (#11055559)
Vietnamese communities tend to integrate well. At least in Easter Europe, in Poland or Czech Rep they are doing quite well, no issues at all.
Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by tajen on Monday February 08, 2016 @02:53AM (#11056859)
In France too. In fact I notice I know many Vietnamese descendents, but I didn't realize it until I counted. They're Frence-rooted to me. Successful integration.
Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by galfarragem on Tuesday February 09, 2016 @06:39AM (#11064638)
I spent some months in Australia and got a completely different idea: multiculturalism is completely an illusion. It's a "timebomb" slowed down by abundance of resources: while everybody is getting more then they need, everything is ok.

Edit: For half a decade I was an expat in a monocultural country. Being open-minded (giving in more often than demanding) and member of a too small community to be considered a threat I could enjoy peace to a greater extent than everywhere else before - even as a member of the majority group in my own country. Probably that's why I'm very bearish regarding multiculturalism.

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by NeutronBoy on Monday February 08, 2016 @12:21AM (#11056472)
Step 2 in Australia now is mandatory detention, and step 3 happens some undetermined time later (if ever). Interesting to see how we've gone backwards.
Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by vacri on Monday February 08, 2016 @02:03AM (#11056732)
Well, asylum-seekers are a massive political football at the moment, but they're a drop in the bucket compared to other migration - Australia has 500k in and 300k out for an annual net migration of 200k in. Excluding kiwis, permanent migrants in are about 86k. Asylum-seekers are very much in the media, but they are also very not typical of the usual migrant situation here.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Latestproducts/3412....

With 28% of our population being born overseas, we're doing integration okay (21% if you discount UK and kiwiland - and our #1 country of import in recent years is China). For comparison, the UK is 12% and the US is 14%. If you look at the current migrant rate (migrants/1000 pop/year), there are only two sizeable western countries higher than Australia, being Norway and Spain. If you exclude conflict areas, there are no other large countries higher than Australia[1].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migra...

Basically, the WAP is dead as a dodo as of 40 years ago. The idea that Australia is an insular country afraid of immigration is clearly a myth once you look at the stats. Of course, that doesn't sell newspapers.

In short, no, we haven't gone backwards. We're actually a success story, it's just that we have a very visible wart on our nose at the moment (thank you, politics).

--

[1] this data is from 2014, which is before Germany took in 1% of it's population in the form of Syrian refugees

[deleted]
Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by Jacqued on Sunday February 07, 2016 @06:51PM (#11055611)
> Things like a Secular government are new concepts to them

I don't think a secular government is a new concept for Syrians or Iraqis. Saudis, Afghans? Sure. But Syria and Iraq have been under secular governments pretty much since the fifties.

Now living in an open, liberal society like those in Western Europe is a different thing altogether, but for educated Syrians it's not an impossible endeavour. I think most of those actually making it to Germany/Sweden/etc. are from the most "modern" parts of society, as the less educated and poorer ones are pretty much stuck in Liban or Turkey

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by dogma1138 on Monday February 08, 2016 @01:07AM (#11056588)
>I don't think a secular government is a new concept for Syrians or Iraqis. Saudis, Afghans? Sure. But Syria and Iraq have been under secular governments pretty much since the fifties.

This is a common misconception while the governments were secular they've enforced very strict "cultural" laws. In Iraq and in Syria it is perfectly legal to kill your sister for extra-mertial sex, homosexuals are also specifically targeted by either laws that outright make homosexuality illegal (Syria) or by laws that target extra-marital sex (Iraq).

So while you can have perfectly "well adjusted" individuals that might even be highly educated there is an almost insurmountable cultural gap that is almost impossible for anyone who isn't either from the region or had extensive contact with people from the middle east to understand.

You can literally be sitting over tea and talking with a young Iraqi, Syria, Iranian or w/e engineer about everything from mechanical engineering to democracy and constitutional law thinking to yourself wow these guys aren't that different after all until they mention in the same nonchalant casual manner as you would "hey did you see the game last night?" that they had to kill their sister or that they've reported their room-mate for being gay to the state.

Religion and culture aren't separate entities like it or not even by being say not even an atheist but an active anti-theist if you grew up in the west the 2000 years or so of shared cultural heritage which at some point or another was (and still collectively is) affected by judeo-christian beliefs, values, or what ever you want to call it (and vise versa) has been imprinted on you from the day you were born the same way it was imprinted on everyone else.

The true cultural shock isn't when the drinking, chain smoking, club going mid-20's Syrian law student comes to Sweden the cultural shock happens when the Swedes figure out that no matter what they tell him they still can't stop him from thinking it's OK to kill his sister for dating some one he doesn't like.

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by pyre on Sunday February 07, 2016 @06:38PM (#11055552)
It's funny how you can tell your political/idealogical leanings on this topic by your phrasing:

> I wonder, what is the percentage of those hundreds of thousands who do not have the same mindset.

Rather than wondering how many people do share that mindset you wonder how many do not share that mindset. This comes across (to me) as if you're coming from a starting position of "they all share this mindset" and are looking to see how wrong you are.

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by brbsix on Sunday February 07, 2016 @08:15PM (#11055899)
They are Islamists. They do not come from a multi-cultural society, e.g. a society of tolerance and acceptance. I think it would be quite deluded to expect something vastly different of them. Whether of not they will adopt Western culture and philosophy is a different question, but at the time of arrival it should be quite clear what culture and values they represent.
Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by nandemo on Sunday February 07, 2016 @09:51PM (#11056134)
Perhaps you mean they are Muslims.

Islamism is an ideology -- or arguably a catch-all term for a number of ideologies -- that want to force Islam into the government, law and everything.

http://www.danielpipes.org/954/distinguishing-between-islam-...

The average Iraqi or Syrian isn't Islamist. E.g. the Alawites in Syria aren't Islamists, and the former Baath party in Iraq wasn't either.

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by dogma1138 on Monday February 08, 2016 @12:42AM (#11056524)
Honor killings were both legal and prevalent in Iraq under Sadam's rule. The Baath party also operated para-military militias that enforced "morality" rules mostly targeting prostitutes and homosexual. Extra marital sex was punishable in Sadam's Iraq and it was commonly enforced by either the family or the government which quite often resulted in death. The picture as far as Syria goes isn't that different the only major difference is that unlike Iraq Syria had and still has specific laws that target homosexuals rather than just "extra martial sex".
Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by pyre on Monday February 08, 2016 @12:53AM (#11056549)
> I think it would be quite deluded to expect something vastly different of them

How about we treat their opinion as "unknown" rather than a foregone conclusion (for either side)? Is this too much to ask?

Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by mistermann on Monday February 08, 2016 @03:36AM (#11056991)
How about we work with the information we do know and approach the problem using logic and prudent risk management like we would with almost any other topic?
Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by nightspirit on Monday February 08, 2016 @02:49AM (#11056844)
I suppose parent may have been extrapolating their willingness to integrate from that of other immigrants from Muslim cultures who have been living in France/Germany/UK for decades.
Re:Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Ret... by hueving on Sunday February 07, 2016 @07:51PM (#11055822)
No, that doesn't reveal anything. If the poster is trying to illustrate that others think differently, either phrasing illustrates it just fine.

Your sensitivity to it maybe illustrates that you are much closer to it politically and are easily offended.