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Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by legulere on Saturday January 16, 2016 @10:37AM (#10915522)
I think the worst about our media, is that most stories are based on dividing people into good and evil. This way of thinking is also very common in our society.

Why do criminals and terrorists act like they do? If you ask people they will tell you because they're evil. But actually nobody is evil, everybody wants something positive. The question is just for whom they think it will be positive and why they think it is positive to do. When you think that they're evil on the other hand you don't have to think about anything and just fight them, because good needs to fight evil.

Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by arethuza on Saturday January 16, 2016 @10:48AM (#10915558)
Look at what happened in the UK with the IRA - for years we had the approach of refusing to talk to them. Eventually we did, found that they had some legitimate complaints and when those were addressed we eventually got an end to the Troubles.

Now we have people like Martin McGuinness, a former IRA leader, as active politicians in Northern Ireland.

Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by ignoramous on Saturday January 16, 2016 @10:50AM (#10915569)
I don't know why you would think that killing innocent people isn't evil.

If you delibrately disturb harmony, or deny someone their rights, or take away something by force that isn't yours, you need to be stopped. Because one thing would lead to another and life as everyone knows it would become a living hell.

Step back and look at oppressive regimes over the course of history. They all have traces of evil in them. It's that simple. I admit that good for one might be evil for another, but there's a basic set of things, I guess, the majority can agree on about what's good and what's not.

Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by delluminatus on Saturday January 16, 2016 @11:08AM (#10915616)
Are you familiar with the Trolley Problem? [0] It's a simple thought experiment, which is intended to make you re-think whether murder is always an evil act.

Suppose a trolley is barelling down a track towards five tied-down people. If it continues, it'll kill them. But, you have access to a lever which would send the trolley down a side-track instead. But the side-track also has one person tied to it. By pulling the lever, you are effectively murdering that helpless, innocent person -- but you would save the other five. If you don't touch the lever, then you are just an innocent bystander who happened to see a quintuple homicide.

In this case, if you insist that murder is evil, and you refuse to be evil, then you have no choice but to let the five people die. But if you allow that murder is sometimes okay -- which is a utilitarian perspective, in the sense that you care more about the ends than the means -- then it becomes much fuzzier whether murder is inherently evil. Indeed, as soon as you give an explicit definition for evil, it becomes very difficult to defend it. The fact of the matter is, the good/evil dichotomy is false and artificial.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by oldmanjay on Saturday January 16, 2016 @11:14AM (#10915641)
Philosophizing abstractly about edge cases is fun but it doesn't really offer anything useful for day-to-day basic living. It's pretty clear that to a vanishingly small gap, murder is 100% evil.
Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by jpfr on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @04:14PM (#10934090)
Discussing edge cases is just the way to find out if a concept (either a technical model or a qualitative worldview) is generally applicable.

Especially if those concepts are touted as being all-encompassing, holding without exception or being superior to other concepts.

Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by delluminatus on Saturday January 16, 2016 @11:18AM (#10915652)
It's true that it doesn't affect our day-to-day life. But I think it is important in the context of being an informed citizen (and, more fundamentally, an ethical person) to have an understanding of different moral systems and the philosophy of ethics. I recognize that this is a personal opinion though, so I won't try to force it on you.
Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by raisedbyninjas on Saturday January 16, 2016 @12:06PM (#10915831)
I'd agree that there is objective morality, so people can be wrong about their own goodness or evilness. OP was saying that people are not intentionally evil, but they are often confused about what values are good. Islamic terrorists value Islamic dominion over everybody and fighting those who oppose this system can then be described as good. This is in contrast to Kylo Ren and the villains of saturday morning cartoons that we grew up with.
Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by legulere on Sunday January 17, 2016 @08:21AM (#10919373)
The problem with the concept of evil is that it is an explanation mechanism. Sure, innocent people getting killed is something really terrible, but it's not happening because terrorists are evil. It's happening because they think they're fighting for something good. For them probably we are the evil ones and need to be fought because we're not following god's laws. Even with your reasoning you could come to the conclusion that the west is evil, as lots of innocent people were killed in the Iraq war.
Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by Aeolos on Saturday January 16, 2016 @10:55AM (#10915585)
What if you kill innocent people in retaliation to the other side killing innocent people? As happened, say in 9/11?

Is that evil? Or is that justified?

Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by evunveot on Saturday January 16, 2016 @11:50AM (#10915762)
I don't see a quandary. Yes, that's evil.
Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by gelasio on Saturday January 16, 2016 @12:45PM (#10916011)
Yes people can absolutely disagree about what is good and what is innocent. For instance - are American tax payers innocent? Some people see them as empowering the world's largest imperial death/chaos/war machine.
Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by jhallenworld on Saturday January 16, 2016 @11:10AM (#10915627)
People like and want heroes and kings. It's not supposed to, but I think the role of US president often satisfies the role of king (much more so than prime ministers of other democracies).

Some radio hosts promote this: I remember in the last election some host (I don't remember which one) was very clearly promoting Mitt Romney as the new king. (Not to say that this is shared by all of the right-wing, it certainly is not- the right-wing would say that the left-wing doesn't want kings, but dictators).

Also, I think this explains a lot of populist animosity towards Obama: How can our king not be one of us?

Anyway Star Wars (and many other fantasy) is all about this kind of mythology.

Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by woopwoop on Saturday January 16, 2016 @11:33AM (#10915693)
The two hallmarks of modern blockbusters, the sanitized but intense violence and the simplistic morality, are actually joined at the hip. On the one hand, if your idea of a rollicking good climax is lots of people being killed, you need to make sure that those people are working in the service of some evil power so great and immovable that it can't be dealt with in any other way. On the other hand, if the world is divided between uncompromised good and uncompromised evil, it is actually okay for the good guys to resort to violence.
Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by bane on Saturday January 16, 2016 @11:09AM (#10915620)
I agree with you that it's more nuanced than the binary thinking often advocated. But I also think that "evil" exists in the world: ISIS is evil, the Nazis where evil, serial killers are evil, and so on. I think the question of "do they think they are doing good or bad" is an interesting question as well.

There's also, like you say, people who do things we perceive as "bad", but it often comes down to misunderstandings of motives, imbalances of power and so on. If somebody steals bread to eat, it's not a good thing, but I can't condemn the act either. As somebody who likes to think they're a force for good, I should probably see what I can do to improve their situation so they don't have to steal in the future.

Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by mikeash on Saturday January 16, 2016 @10:47AM (#10915555)
Some people really are evil. Some psychopaths, for example, know that what they're doing is negative and do it anyway. (Many more cover it up and try to do the right thing, of course.)

But of course this doesn't apply to terrorists or most criminals. The occasional serial killer fits the bill and not much more.

What really gets me is that if you start taking about terrorists like this, saying you should understand what makes them tick, that they think they're doing the right thing, etc., people freak out. I just think we should understand them better so we know how to stop them, but any attempt at understanding is taken as justification for what they do.

Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by oldmanjay on Saturday January 16, 2016 @11:11AM (#10915634)
Effective leadership is difficult. It's relatively easier to whip people into an us v. them frenzy to get a group on your side. Good v. evil is the most basic way to delineate the groups, although there are others.
Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by ra1n85 on Saturday January 16, 2016 @11:18AM (#10915650)
>But actually nobody is evil, everybody wants something positive

You can't characterize all human motivations along this line of rationale. Psychopathy is real. Even recent history is littered with sadistic madmen.

Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by pinaceae on Saturday January 16, 2016 @11:10AM (#10915629)
history and facts are proving you wrong.

you don't think anyone is evil?

from charles manson to josef mengele, from the killing fields of the khmer rouge to the zetas in mexico - if you have no problem, no qualms, when you're taking an unarmed human being, shoving them in a barrel then lighting them on fire - you should qualify as evil.

some people cause harm for fun. they enjoy it, take pleasure from it. if you don't label them as evil, then you belittle all the people that put themselves in harms way to help others.

Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by dawnbreez on Saturday January 16, 2016 @10:37AM (#10915526)
I've been saying this for at least a year. Finally, someone else gets it.
Re:Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On by globba22 on Saturday January 16, 2016 @10:46AM (#10915550)
Wise thinkers throughout history have been saying it too :)