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Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by sveiss on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:29AM (#10908572)
I'd have thought simply switching the phone off would be easier? Much better on your battery life too, if the phone turns the transmit power up to try and reach a base station.
Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by alex_duf on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:32AM (#10908584)
I wouldn't feel safe until the battery is removed (which unfortunately isn't possible on most phones anymore)

The baseband still has access to your battery when your phone is off.

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by sveiss on Friday January 15, 2016 @07:57AM (#10908985)
If your phone is lying to you about being switched off, then it's already compromised (and you're probably under some highly targeted surveillance already). If I had any evidence this had happened to me, I'd get rid of the phone instead of trusting it under any circumstances.

For the example of a protest march, if you're a participant or even a bystander walking home wanting to avoid being caught up in a surveillance dragnet, turning your phone off should be sufficient. You'd probably want to take stronger measures if you were involved in organising the protest, though.

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by vidarh on Friday January 15, 2016 @08:46AM (#10909233)
Any number of phones over the years have/had functionality separate from the main OS (and in some cases backed with a small secondary battery) to trigger the phone to wake up to play alarms etc.. Given that the baseband code is totally closed and has total control over the phone, if the physical capability is there all it takes is a suitable vulnerability.

I would not trust that any modern smartphone is fully off without yanking the battery.

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by pbhjpbhj on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:52PM (#10913241)
>without yanking the battery //

Are you sure they don't have a backup battery or similar that can continue broadcasting your location after you pull the battery. That would be an ideal countermeasure as pulling the battery would be a great indication you may be about to do something "naughty" and you'd likely do such things shortly after too ...

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by Nadya on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:55PM (#10913263)
>I would not trust that any modern smartphone is fully off without yanking the battery.

That is not enough. Use a faraday cage.

Modern phones have two batteries [0].

[0] http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/cell-phone6.htm

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by noir_lord on Friday January 15, 2016 @05:34PM (#10912789)
> stronger measures if you were involved in organising the protest, though.

Burner phones bought in cash from one of the little independent shops we have all over (here in the UK anyway) with pre-paid sims - not a new idea I saw it cropping up in fiction 20 or more years ago but still effective, used for a day or two and then dumped.

Isn't it tragic that the way you have to protect yourself from the state when organising a legal protest is pretty much the same way you would do it if you where a drug dealer or a terrorist (at least a reasonably smart one).

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by raverbashing on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:52AM (#10908678)
> The baseband still has access to your battery when your phone is off.

Citation needed?

Because the definition of off, for most phones, is exactly that.

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by tombrossman on Friday January 15, 2016 @07:25AM (#10908844)
Good point, asking for a citation. It's an extraordinary claim and so requires something to back it up. A quick search turns up this quote from a 2013 Washington Post story "By September 2004, a new NSA technique enabled the agency to find cellphones even when they were turned off. JSOC troops called this “The Find,” and it gave them thousands of new targets, including members of a burgeoning al-Qaeda-sponsored insurgency in Iraq, according to members of the unit." Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-g...
Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by nabla9 on Friday January 15, 2016 @08:11AM (#10909053)
That WaPo news has been debunked:

http://blog.erratasec.com/2013/07/no-nsa-cant-track-phones-e...

There is NSA method called 'implant', but it requires installation of software (possibly in the firmware). It's not so easy and it can't be used in large scale.

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by tombrossman on Friday January 15, 2016 @08:41AM (#10909202)
Reading the blog post, it definitely does not 'debunk' the Washington Post report. All it does is take issue with Snowden's blanket claim that all mobiles are vulnerable (which is a good point and is one I'm inclined to agree with).
Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by nabla9 on Friday January 15, 2016 @10:10AM (#10909710)
Let's not confuse mass surveillance and targeted surveillance of small number of people. They are two different things.

Snowden is right when he says that every phone is vulnerable for targeted surveillance. For people like him, every phone is dangerous even when they are closed.

Mass surveillance is different. NSA can't just pick random person and remotely track their phone when it's turned off.

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by Spooky23 on Friday January 15, 2016 @09:19AM (#10909418)
This capability has been known for many years. From 2006:

>"The FBI can access cell phones and modify them remotely without ever having to physically handle them," James Atkinson, a counterintelligence security consultant, told ABC News. "Any recently manufactured cell phone has a built-in tracking device, which can allow eavesdroppers to pinpoint someone's location to within just a few feet," he added.

Source: http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/12/can_you_hear_me....

I believe (but cannot cite) that this capability became mainstream when E911 & GPS was mandated.

This stuff is a big reason why BlackBerry was so critical to regulated industries and public company execs. PIN messaging on legacy BlackBerry was secure between devices on the same BES, and there wasn't a direct linkage to the user's identity, which made it easy to lower the value of metadata collection.

The fact that BlackBerry designed around this early on leads me to suspect (as an outside observer with an imagination) that mass metadata collection was known by folks in industry back in the 90s.

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by gherkin0 on Friday January 15, 2016 @01:49PM (#10911243)
> The fact that BlackBerry designed around this early on leads me to suspect (as an outside observer with an imagination) that mass metadata collection was known by folks in industry back in the 90s.

Wouldn't a simpler explanation be that it was just over-designed for 90s-era threats in a way that hardened it to some more recent threats?

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by Spooky23 on Friday January 15, 2016 @11:00PM (#10914181)
It is definitely a simpler explanation.

Consider however that none of their US based competitors managed to do address those threats in a meaningful way.

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by Perixoog on Friday January 15, 2016 @02:25PM (#10911482)
Maybe referring to a "short message type 0"

https://github.com/SecUpwN/Android-IMSI-Catcher-Detector/iss...

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by mryan on Friday January 15, 2016 @08:15AM (#10909073)
This was one of the things revealed by the Snowden leaks.

'Dreamy Smurf handles power management, which according to The Guardian includes "an ability to stealthily activate a phone that is apparently turned off"'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WARRIOR_PRIDE

Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by grey-area on Friday January 15, 2016 @08:33AM (#10909153)
Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by kawsper on Friday January 15, 2016 @07:03AM (#10908728)
Snowden didn't want to be in a room with a phone, no matter the state of the phone.
Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by mattkevan on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:36AM (#10908604)
If your phone doesn't have a removable battery, how do you know if it's really off?
Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by kencausey on Friday January 15, 2016 @07:51AM (#10908961)
Not entirely relevant but note that if a power switch does not have a mechanical difference between the off and on state then there must be an active component that at the very least must monitor the power button to detect presses. I don't really know, but it seems likely that in a smart phone the SOC is used to monitor the power button and it is therefore only ever in a very low power state (sans battery removal). That doesn't of course mean that any radio components are receiving power.
Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by tonyedgecombe on Friday January 15, 2016 @08:41AM (#10909198)
I think you could do that in a passive way as well, where the act of pressing the button powers up a circuit that holds the power on.
Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by Chris2048 on Friday January 15, 2016 @08:39AM (#10909194)
low power devices now exist that can live of small traces of power. Even with the battery removed, how can you be sure it's still not listening?...
Re:Signs of Secret Phone Surveillance Across London by sleepybrett on Friday January 15, 2016 @08:06PM (#10913603)
This is why you should never take phones into any kind of sensitive meeting or at least put it into a faraday bag.