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Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by brightball on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @03:55PM (#10897423)
Whenever people talk about the money in college football right now, I generally tell them to blame Tivo (and subsequently Netflix). Tivo started it with the ability to record and watch later while fast forwarding through commercials. Netflix with it's mountains of commercial free content followed next.

That put a huge advertising premium on content that people NEED to watch live like sports or hit shows like Walking Dead that have community reactions as episodes air.

The reality for cord cutters and cable companies alike is that, if it weren't for ESPN I'd have no reason to have cable. It's the only reason I have a pay TV package.

When you break down the technology, that won't change anytime soon either.

With Netflix or other streaming services 50,000 TVs is 50,000 individual streaming sessions. With a broadcast 50,000 people watching the same thing is 1 broadcast. It's just a question of scalability that gets complicated if millions of people all want to watch the same thing at the exact same time.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by peckrob on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @04:14PM (#10897546)
> The reality for cord cutters and cable companies alike is that, if it weren't for ESPN I'd have no reason to have cable. It's the only reason I have a pay TV package.

During college football season I got a Sling subscription solely to watch college football (ESPN and the SEC Network mostly). I never even really used the Sling app much - it's terrible, crashes a lot, and isn't on AppleTV. I just used my Sling account to connect to WatchESPN. That, plus an antenna for the marquee matchups on the major networks covered everything I wanted to see this last year at 1/6 the cost of a cable subscription.

All of my football-watching friends were doing the same thing this year.

The fact is, if I could, I would pay ESPN directly what I paid Sling for access to WatchESPN. Because, just like cable, Sling was giving me a bunch of stuff I don't really care about just to get ESPN. There's nothing else on TV that I can't wait for other than sports.

> With Netflix or other streaming services 50,000 TVs is 50,000 individual streaming sessions. With a broadcast 50,000 people watching the same thing is 1 broadcast. It's just a question of scalability that gets complicated if millions of people all want to watch the same thing at the exact same time.

I really don't think the problem here is technological so much as it is economic. The scalability problems could be solved if there was the will. But according to one article [0] an unbunbled or streaming subscriber would need to pay $36 a month for ESPN access for them to generate the same revenue they generate through current cable carriage contracts. Considering ESPN is starting to feel the crunch [1] from cord cutting and is beginning to trim costs, I imagine it will eventually become a reality.

[0] http://www.forbes.com/sites/dorothypomerantz/2015/03/25/are-...

[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/cable-television-espn-househo...

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by cptskippy on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @05:58PM (#10898328)
> an unbunbled or streaming subscriber would need to pay $36 a month for ESPN access for them to generate the same revenue they generate through current cable carriage contracts.

ESPN and professional sports are way over valued and forcing everyone to subsidize sports fans. This is literally the reason why people are becoming cord-cutters, they're tired of paying for things they don't want. Right now 1 in 6 cable subscribers watch ESPN but 6 in 6 cable subscribers pay for it. Cable companies really need to move to an a-la-carte pricing model if they want survive but they're afraid of the large networks pulling their bundles. It's almost like we need a cable monopoly or union to break the network monopolies.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by mapt on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @09:15PM (#10899199)
"1 in 6 watches it, 6 in 6 pay for it".

Except that the marginal cost of providing ESPN service to people who do not watch ESPN is nearly zero.

A-la-carte pricing makes sense if the corporation is spending a-la-carte costs, but they're not: the cable hookup and maintenance costs almost the same either way. There are some issues with a cap on the number of channels that can be simultaneously transmitted in a cable pipe, but it's perfectly feasible to launch a few hundred simulcast channels on current tech. You're not paying for the stuff you don't watch, you're paying for what you do watch; Providing the selection of things that you can refuse to watch, is basically free.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by MereInterest on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @10:45PM (#10899489)
The cost of the hookup is just one part of the cost. Licensing fees are also present. A quick Google search finds that for ESPN, these are on the order of $5/customer/month. For someone who doesn't watch ESPN, that is a hefty subsidy compared to that of other networks.

Source:http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/dish-espn-trial-off...

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by mapt on Thursday January 14, 2016 @06:12AM (#10900674)
Simple_Example_Cable_Company has 200k subscribers, charges $30/month, and licenses:

$10/customer/month to Channel A, which has 100k viewers who only watch it

$10/customer/month to Channel B, which also has 100k viewers who only watch it

...

In 2018, consumer activists manage to break up SECC and institute an a-la-carte system.

In 2019 they can choose to pay $20/customer/month to channel A (which is going to charge enough to keep its revenue at $2M/month), or they can choose to pay $20/customer/month to channel B (which is going to charge enough to keep its revenue at $2M/month).

On top of that, to secure either channel you're going to need a $10 subscription fee to the service provider for hookup (which is going to charge enough to keep its systems operational).

A-la-carte pricing is a zero sum game for the median viewer, so long as the content and the infrastructure keep getting paid for. It is nothing like "But I just want to be able to buy an appetizer, why are you making me pay for an entree!", because appetizers and entrees are both real goods which cost money to produce, while additional permissions to change the channel to something else, are not real goods. Food prices will not drastically rise for the same dish, if the customers order less of it, while entertainment prices will.

I think people are hanging their monopolistic concerns, which are valid for the most part, on a-la-carte pricing, and it's just nonsense.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by shasta on Thursday January 14, 2016 @10:14AM (#10901840)
Your analysis is all wrong. Not all programming costs the same to make or license and not all people consume the same amount of programming. Your point basically boils down to "those people whose ESPN you are subsidizing are also subsidizing your programming that they might not watch." That's true, but the two don't necessarily cancel out. Sports programming costs a lot to license because there is high demand and there's basically a monopoly.

Non-zero marginal costs would further favor a la carte pricing as it would reduce actual waste, but even with zero marginal cost there is still subsidization.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by unprepare on Thursday January 14, 2016 @08:35AM (#10901240)
20/month is 240$ - for 240$ I can buy a season pass (40$) to 6 individual shows. Unless i want to watch more than 6 of AMCs shows concurrently, its much more expensive to pay 20$/ month. Even including shows that are over, I cant think of 6 successful shows on any single cable network. (walking dead, mad men, breaking bad, better call saul?, talking dead?, ??)

On top of this, pricing has already been set and normalized in this market.

Netflix is 7.99

amazon prime is around 8$

hulu is around 9 for ad free

hbogo is 14.99 and is seen as premium in the marketplace

I cant see any network pricing themselves above HBO and being successful.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by mapt on Thursday January 14, 2016 @09:40AM (#10901605)
You have succeeded in completely missing the point, by fixating on an arbitrary number while missing the simple principle that the contrived example is meant to illustrate.

If the service remains the same, the total that consumers pay will necessarily have to remain about the same. Instead of getting the freedom to change channels, they'll be stuck with the limited selection they have subscribed to. The bundling business model is a natural best fit for the technology that permits channels to be streamed simultaneously over the same lines; Anything else is a waste for the consumer and for the company.

You guys are chasing illusory discounts: "If I just had to pay $5 to ESPN and I could drop everythng I don't watch..." cannot mathematically happen, because ESPN has to crank up their prices or end most of their production to survive as soon as their customer base drops by 90% due to the end of bundling.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by unprepare on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @04:00PM (#10933975)
You have succeeded in completely missing the point.

It doesnt matter what ESPNs current revenue is, and it doesnt matter how many subscribers the lose when the shift towards a la carte.

The fact is that the pricing for sports content has already happened; if ESPN wanted to weigh in on how much sports should cost, they should have gotten to market before the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, etc.

ESPN can launch at whatever price they want, but if that price exceeds the price of the official league packages that i intend to watch, there is absolutely 0 chance that i subscribe to ESPN

You're chasing illusory revenues, "If I just set the price at X$, we could drop everyone who doesnt watch" cannot mathematically happen, because NFL et al would have to crank down their prices for ESPN to remain competitive.

>or end most of their production to survive

DING DING DING - this is exactly what will happen when espn finds out people dont value their more recent tabloid/drama centered content

An actual example:

I currently pay $150/year for NFL gamepass. This allows me to watch every single NFL game in HD live, including pre and post season games.

150/year is 12.50/month. IF ESPN released a service costing 13/month, i wouldn't buy it. What value does ESPN add to my existing NFL gamepass package? Do they think i would pay 13/month purely for sportscenter? purely for their terrible discussions of the latest drama in the sports world? Maybe if they offered some kind of sports news and debate like they did a decade or so ago.

This is ESPN's competition. They have to compete with existing services that already fill the need for watching sports.

I imagine ESPNs current broadcast contracts do not specifically allow them to move to a la carte structure, nor do i imagine it allows them to begin any kind of streaming service. I very much doubt the leagues are going to be very kind when renegotiating those contracts now that they all have their own streaming services.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by jack9 on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @10:19PM (#10899407)
I'm not sure what you mean by "Except" or "You're not paying for the stuff you don't watch, you're paying for what you do watch;"

A la carte that avoids ESPN, doesn't exist from the major providers (it's part of everyone's basic packages but ATT that I have seen). That was the point (6 of 6 pay for it).

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by peckrob on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @10:55PM (#10899516)
I don't disagree with you, but I could apply this same logic to the 50 gazillion channels of reality TV cable was offering me that I could not possibly care less about. I don't like subsidizing them, but I was still paying for them.

I wish there was an unbundled option so I could buy just ESPN. That is literally the only thing cable companies have that I care about. Even better for me would be to just cut the cable companies out entirely and let me pay $20 a month or something directly to ESPN for WatchESPN access.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by cptskippy on Friday January 15, 2016 @04:57PM (#10912476)
Funny thing is, I don't watch those channels either. That's why I don't have cable, there is almost no value in it. There are maybe 2 or 3 channels that I'd want but I can't get them without paying for 70 channels I don't want.
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by grayje on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @08:29PM (#10899024)
> an unbundled or streaming subscriber would need to pay $36 a month for ESPN access for them to generate the same revenue they generate through current cable carriage contracts

That subscriber will be worth a lot more once they can be targeted with individually personalized marketing content based on previous TV-watching habits, augmented with third-party data from other digital channels, web browsing history, purchasing history, etc. It's coming; YouTube proves it can be done. It's only a matter of time before we see different business models for the monetization of streaming content on more 'traditional' TV channels as well.

The alternative is a subscription model that would price out many sports fans, or obsolescence followed by slow death for want of revenue.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by profeta on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @05:33PM (#10898152)
Doesn't it air on any open channel?

when i got my friends to watch the world cup at home i attached a $5 antenna to the DVR (i build a computer with a $120 TV-in card, and had never used until then!)

the image was not the best, but for live sports, who cares?! oh and it got worse every time a plane passed above.

anyway, the antenna was a very easy solution for the impromptu need for live sports.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by peckrob on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @05:43PM (#10898232)
Not sure where you're located, but in the US ESPN is a cable/satellite only channel. The only way to get it is with a subscription.

For college sports, they're also the biggest player. The "big" matchups of the week (usually the highest ranked or most interesting teams) in each market are usually played on the major networks that you can pick up with an antenna from the local affiliate. But the rest of the games being televised are carried exclusively* on cable, usually on ESPN channels.

Keep in mind there are 128 Division 1-A (major) programs, and many more 1-AA and lower programs, so there are a LOT of games going on each week. Some games are played during the week, but the very large majority of them are played on Saturday. So there's way more going on then could ever conceivably be carried over the air.

During college football season, there are something like 7 or 8 games playing simultaneously on the various ESPN channels, not including the "Plus" channels that are only available digitally by WatchESPN.

There are a couple others out there (NBC Sports Network and FoxSports come to mind) but neither are bigger in sports than ESPN.

* Depending on where you live, you can also sometimes get radio broadcasts if you live close enough to the school in question that there's a local affiliate that carries the game. Rights for those are handled differently.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by profeta on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @07:36PM (#10898816)
i see. well, for air channels, they would probably show the Saturday game with the most local teams only. never really followed american football. but for soccer that works fine for most people. And when there are two games with local teams, they show the bigger one and interrupt it to show goals on the other one.
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by eewffwe on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @04:43PM (#10897775)
>isn't on AppleTV

You can use your Sling membership credentials to sign into ESPN's app. The app does not crash from my experience - works a charm.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by peckrob on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @04:46PM (#10897797)
Yup, that's exactly what I was doing. :)
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by No1 on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @04:27PM (#10897647)
> It's just a question of scalability that gets complicated if millions of people all want to watch the same thing at the exact same time.

That's a nice use case for multicast. Worked for me over a decade ago. I can only assume the technology has gotten better since.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by chipotle_coyote on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @05:39PM (#10898185)
I think that use case was implied by the OP:

With Netflix or other streaming services 50,000 TVs is 50,000 individual streaming sessions. With a broadcast 50,000 people watching the same thing is 1 broadcast.

Multicast is effectively broadcast -- it's (theoretically) great if what you're distributing is a live video stream. But we're moving toward a world where the vast majority of what we're watching is on-demand. While I could be wrong about this, my strong suspicion is that the technology hasn't gotten better in the last decade; most implementations just don't scale to the level that a service like ESPN would require (i.e., millions of nodes reliably receiving HD video), and I'm not even sure most commercial Internet backbones support multicast.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by JimboOmega on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @09:10PM (#10899188)
Does multicast see any actual use? I was under the impression that while it's theoretically great for a live video stream, nobody ever actually uses it.
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by jon-wood on Thursday January 14, 2016 @02:09AM (#10900026)
The last time I checked a few UK TV channels were doing multicast streaming, but none of the big ISPs actually supported it. I have no idea what's involved in making it work but I find it really sad that it's not used more.
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by jon-wood on Thursday January 14, 2016 @04:44AM (#10900392)
Out of curiosity I dug into this a bit more. The BBC's multicast trial (which has been a trial for at least ten years now) is still running, but I assume at this point isn't going anywhere.

However BT (one of the big ISPs) uses multicast to deliver their TV service, so I assume BT their connections are capable of receiving multicasts if properly configured.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by lmm on Thursday January 14, 2016 @05:14AM (#10900483)
Unfortunately more and more people seem to think connecting through NAT is acceptable.
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by smt88 on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @05:07PM (#10897955)
The number of people and expected video quality have also increased
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by jessaustin on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @07:09PM (#10898703)
Whenever people talk about the money in college football right now, I generally tell them to blame Tivo...

Surely at least some of the blame can be shared with the total abdication of the educational mission on the part of thousands of university administrators. The athletic tail has been wagging the academic dog for decades longer than Tivo has been around.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by brightball on Thursday January 14, 2016 @10:46AM (#10902048)
People say that a lot, but most athletic departments aren't actually profitable. The biggest thing that athletics helps with is marketing exposure for the university. Applications go through the roof when a team is on TV. It improves morale in the alumni base which has a big effect in academic donations as well.

I'm a Clemson grad for example and 15 years ago, Clemson's athletic department budget was about $30 million a year (for all sports combined). Since Tivo, it's gone up to about $70 million a year but it's totally self sufficient as well. It's all fueled by donations, ticket sales and TV revenues. TV revenues account for about $20 million of that budget so half of the increase is purely from TV.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by jessaustin on Thursday January 14, 2016 @07:49PM (#10906197)
Sure, some athletics departments are "profitable", others are not. That doesn't contradict the proposition that there is too much money involved in college athletics, and that it is and was the responsibility of college presidents and boards to prevent that. Blaming Tivo for this is more ridiculous than any Tivo-blaming we ever heard from the copyright mafiaa.
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by brightball on Friday January 15, 2016 @08:38AM (#10909186)
The TV advertising value of college and pro football relative to everything else on TV has gone through the roof ever since skipping commercials became the norm.

If you can identify another reason why TV contracts for the SEC, ACC, Big 10, Big 12 and PAC 12 suddenly skyrocketed in the last 15 years I would love to hear it.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by efuquen on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @04:09PM (#10897517)
For $20/month you can get ESPN & ESPN2 and about 20 other channels (Food Network, HGTV, Cartoon Network, Discovery, History Channel are a few of the main ones I use) streamed via Sling TV. For another $5 you can add a few more Sports channels.
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by te on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @04:34PM (#10897705)
Serious question: can I record streams from Sling TV so I can watch on my schedule and skip commercials?
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by verisimilidude on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @04:59PM (#10897900)
There's no way to skip commercials or record shows. Sling does offer an interesting alternative: each channel is accompanied by an on-demand section of recent broadcasts, meaning you wouldn't need to record anything because it'd already be available for streaming. Sadly, support for this is inconsistent between channels.

I signed up for Sling TV over the summer to help get me through long sleepless nights with a newborn. It's an interesting service but there are lots of little problems like the above. I dropped it around Thanksgiving.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by jedberg on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @05:42PM (#10898216)
I was on their beta and still have it today. I don't watch it a lot, and only really use it for ESPN and background noise.

But every time I'm about to cancel, there's a big matchup on ESPN that makes me say "just one more month". And then since I have it I throw it on as background noise again. It's a vicious cycle.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by mikeash on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @10:57PM (#10899520)
Isn't having millions of people watching the same thing at the same time easier than millions of people watching different things at the same time?
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by brightball on Thursday January 14, 2016 @10:52AM (#10902088)
It is on a broadcast where people are listening to a single signal (radio, antenna, satellite, etc).

Over the internet, it has to operate as a point to point TCP connection for each device so 50,000 people watching is 50,000 individual HD streams. If multicast over the internet worked it'd be another ballgame of course.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by mikeash on Thursday January 14, 2016 @01:39PM (#10903381)
I understand the difference between broadcast as found in radio and how a "broadcast" would work over the internet.

But 50,000 people watching 50,000 individual HD streams that happen to contain the same thing still seems slightly easier than 50,000 people watching 50,000 individual HD streams with different content.

I'm taking it as a given that the technology and infrastructure is already there to support millions of people watching different streams simultaneously, since that seems to be what Netflix does.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by brightball on Friday January 15, 2016 @08:53AM (#10909265)
When Netflix does it, during high viewing hours I've seen reports claiming that they account for 30% of all US internet traffic. It's still a very high bandwidth operation.

The equivalent of a CDN where each ISP has a box receiving the broadcast so that all of their local customers don't have to stream direct from ESPN will make it more tolerable, but the big hit will be on people trying to do it from cell networks.

When Netflix does it they are working with pre-optimized content. They get to prepare all of the video to stream in advance, optimize it for each screen size, transfer each variant it down to each ISP and then turn it on when it's ready. With a live feed you've got to do all that on the fly to each ISP appliance that you've got in place.

I'm sure it can be done, somehow, but I have serious concerns about the technological cost of scaling that for a huge audience. Just as a comparison here, the college football title game that just happened garnered about 29 million viewers on TV and about 800,000 streaming with WatchESPN. That was the most streaming traffic ESPN had ever had.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by superuser2 on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @10:47PM (#10899495)
Multicast has been sitting there in the specs since forever. If ISPs ever feel like switching it on, there's your scalability problem solved.
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by icebraining on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @04:10PM (#10897527)
It's only a complication for the last mile, and I think it can cope. For the backbone, they can just do poor man's multicast with their appliances for ISPs. Just one stream to each ISP/appliance, which is then repeated to each client.

https://openconnect.netflix.com/

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by thinkpad20 on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @04:32PM (#10897684)
> if it weren't for ESPN I'd have no reason to have cable. It's the only reason I have a pay TV package.

Yup. Unfortunately, even just getting ESPN (and similar channels like FS1 etc) means buying huge bloated bundles. I'm hopeful this will change in the next couple of years though.

Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by eewffwe on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @04:41PM (#10897762)
Sling TV. $15 a month (ESPN/ESPN2 are included).
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by ascendantlogic on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @06:02PM (#10898352)
Just give me that and the BIG10 network and I'm set.
Re:Al Jazeera America to Shut Down in April by a-priori on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @04:08PM (#10897506)
Netflix already has local boxes on ISP networks that act as a local cache for customers on that network to ease the load on the ISP's peering connections. A similar architecture could handle that fanout for live content as well.