As a woman, I'm not sure if marriage is as simple as a checkbox of wants, needs, desires, and luxuries. A lot of people seem to model these things as a game where there is some sort of fitness function that needs to be maximised and so on, but I'm not sure if that works too well.

In the middle of the 20th century, von Neumann and his ilk predicted nuclear war with absolute certainty. So certain were they in their conviction that they in fact advocated a first-strike policy by the US, but that war never came. The models were adjusted to include repeated games and then people said, that's the reason why we haven't blown up. (see: http://www.scu.edu/business/economics/workingpapers/upload/F... ) But rationally speaking the game of global annihilation was a single game - the person who moved first would have the fewest people die and then there would be no more games, so their analysis doesn't quite hold up. Indeed there have been times where people have tried to destroy the world, but someone, somewhere down the chain of command has said no and prevented that outcome. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Arkhipov and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov )

Maybe, just maybe, we should accept that while looking at the world through the lens of game theoretic models is useful for a lot of applications - it isn't the be all and end all of human society. There are women out there who do indeed care about those points and want to "better" their rank within the game they play. There are others for whom that game doesn't even exist and they can be just as desirable and amazing as the first group. So at the end, you could very well end up not playing the game and have a shot at a pretty decent life and find some happiness.

What you're saying goes against a lot of research into how humans pick partners. [0][1] It's very complex and little of it is conscious.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_selection_in_humans

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assortative_mating#Assortative...

I am not saying that the model isn't useful - I am saying that it isn't universally applicable. We have so many deep evolutionary drives that we re-program to our ends all the time. Contraception is a great example of this, as are people trying to get over PTSD, eating disorders, and so on.

So, yeah, sure the model explains quite a bit and explains why we find certain things attractive, but it says nothing whatsoever about why certain people marry each other - which is what the question is.

> There are others for whom that game doesn't even exist and they can be just as desirable and amazing as the first group.

The fitness function might be completely different from one woman to the next, but I think extremely few are the type to just buy the first car off the lot without some kind of comparison shopping / fitness function maximizing. And at that point, your standing relative to her other suitors indeed becomes more important than your absolute level of achievement.

It's not about being better, it's about doing better.

I have a friend that I've been dating. She tells me all about the other guys she dates. This past weekend for her birthday a friend flew down from another state to hang out with her for the weekend.

This guy is loaded. Way more money than sense. Among the things he got her that weekend was a $200 bottle of champagne that he must've paid $300 for because he got it in a restaurant. She doesn't drink. She had half a cup and they left the bottle on the table when they left.

He does all this for a girl he sees a few times a year. When she told me this story, I went down to the massage place she likes, and got her a $200 gift card for massages. She was very grateful.

I don't take her to expensive restaurants, I take her to the best places in town to eat, which are never really expensive. I take time to try to get to know her and try to work on my issues so that the time we spend together is better.

As a result she spends way more time with me than she does with the others. Where other guys spend money to cover up their perceived inadequacies, I put time and effort into making every moment I spend with her special.

That kind of effort is an order of magnitude more effective at finding and keeping the woman of your dreams. And you don't have to have a ton of money or a huge penis or be six feet tall to do it.

I might get down voted to death here. But let me tell you a couple things (you look inexperienced dating-wise):

- She's very unlikely getting that spoiled by other men. Girls say that all the time to pump their value and push you to higher standards.

- Unless she is: 1. texting you 3-5 times a day and 2. having sex with you; she's using you literally for any penny you are spending.

Girls will kill for men they like. They'll spend all their money on him. I had a girl save for a month to pay for a train ticket just to see me. You are very likely being played here.

I don't buy into this kind of cynicism. And it's silly. I enjoy our time spent together, and consider paying for a second meal for the privilege of doing so a bargain. She is certainly the most expensive girl I've ever dated, but she's actually a really cheap date. When we go out, I spend more money on myself than on her.

She used to ask for me to pay for her nails and massages and stuff, I would do it once, then not do it anymore. If I were making more money, I could budget it in, but as it is I just don't have it. I encourage her to get her other guy friends to pay for that stuff for her.

And on the 'using' issue: If I had the kind of money these guys have, and the willingness to use it on dating, I'd regularize it. I'd have accounts at all her beauty spots and have them just send me the bill every month. I would of course talk to her to keep it from getting excessive, (more likely I'd negotiate with the business for better rates) but I would not begrudge a lady for taking advantage of my generosity. That's what it's there for.

You know your problem is that you are completely in the wrong, yet try to make it look like you have it all figured out.

I never say Women or Girls are evil. They are not that cute creatures that you think they are, though. They are completely acting on their own self-interest which is fine and logical.

You'll be in for some surprises/lessons. But that's how we all learn I guess.

> They are completely acting on their own self-interest which is fine and logical.

When did I say she wasn't?

> yet try to make it look like you have it all figured out.

I have the kind of lifestyle that allows me to learn these kinds of lessons very quickly. Beautiful women, and their attendant problems, have come into and out of my life for as long as I can remember, and I've read everything interesting that I could find regarding human attraction / connection, tested the methods, and come to my own conclusions. The lessons / surprises you say I'm 'in for', I've learned over and over again.

There is still room in the world for love and trust and tenderness. You need to be emotionally mature and be willing to be vulnerable. Heartbreaks happen but you move on. If you let yourself get scarred then you'll never find truly honest and open love. That honestness and openness is so important for me to find that I will allow myself to get hurt as many times as it takes.

I do not see myself as playing a game with this girl that one of us will win. I see it as two people exploring life together. It's not a game, there are no points, only experiences to share.

How old are you? I ask because it sounds like she's using you for something to do while she works on landing some rich, handsome guy she wants, and you are still naive kid. Ask her to stop dating anyone else and see what happens.

By the way, $200 for a bottle of real Champagne in a restaurant while pricey is not anything to crazy. And yeah, some of the best places in town to eat are expensive. Not all, of course but some. So if you were her, would you rather the option to eat at any of the best places or only the ones you could afford? Would you rather drink sparkling wine if you drank or real Champagne? Money and good looks are not everything, but when all else is equal they certainly do matter.

> I ask because it sounds like she's using you

I'm 32. She's mid-twenties. She's a gorgeous girl, I'm not going to hold it against her for exploring her options. If she does decide that a rich, handsome guy is right for her, that's fine by me. I have plenty of options too, and that works both ways.

> By the way, $200 for a bottle of real Champagne in a restaurant while pricey is not anything to crazy.

You're just thinking about the Champagne. He flew down there, took her on a trip to a nearby town, dinners, drinks, and dancing every night. Sure, $300 isn't that much when it's just for the one dinner, but my guess is that he blew well over $5k on this one trip.

That's a lot of money. Worse, it's a lot of time. Were I him, I'd just have hired an escort got on with it. She enjoyed the parts she enjoyed and didn't enjoy the parts she didn't enjoy. To me it's an extravagance that is wholly unnecessary. I would not trade my life for one of that kind of luxury. If I could add the ability to pay for that kind of luxury onto my current life, sure, that would be fine. But the best things in life really are free.

> And yeah, some of the best places in town to eat are expensive.

Depends on where you live. If you're in NYC or LA, where all the talent flocks to, certainly the top restaurants there are great. Generally in a mid-size city like Kansas City or Atlanta, the ethnic restaurants available are amazing the best of those simply blow all but the very top-tier ones away. At my company, we go to Houston's sometime on the CEO's dime. The $30 plates there are decent, but I always come away wishing I'd been able to go to my favorite Korean taco place.

> So if you were her, would you rather the option to eat at any of the best places or only the ones you could afford?

I think she's coming around to my way of looking at things. I took her to a Korean yesterday (different from the taco joint) and this girl, who has been wined and dined by crazy-rich guys, was over the hill about how amazing the food was in this little hole-in-the-wall strip mall joint and how it was some of the best food she's ever had in her life.

I go there twice a month.

Certainly she'd like to have the best of both worlds, but Hugh Grant isn't knocking on her door. I don't have to compete with movie stars, I can just compete with the other guy she dates. And from what I hear from her, you can be rich and handsome and still be an insufferable bore.

If anyone's using anyone, it's her using these guys for spa treatments and dinners.

> As a result she spends way more time with me than she does with the others. Where other guys spend money to cover up their perceived inadequacies, I put time and effort into making every moment I spend with her special.

But she still seems to need to meet rich guys who live in another state despite all the quality time with you? Perhaps you're deluding yourself and she's just spending time between the more interesting guys with you because you're more available.

> because you're more available.

The availability aspect is interesting. I used to try to play availability games with her. They mostly just got in the way. I much prefer to be generous with my time, and set boundaries rather than be arbitrary.

Her time is very limited too. She has a full-time job that keeps her occupied sometimes during the weekend as well. She doesn't have a lot of available time for dating herself. Despite this, she regularly makes time to come see me.

She shows me the text messages of the "more interesting guys" she also dates. Nasty, ugly, controlling, the lot of them.

The impression I get from her is that she doesn't really understand guy psychology and so doesn't really grasp why it's all a waste of time. But I can be patient. I date other girls too. My dating life isn't as full as hers, but I like to think my 'others' are way better quality than her 'others'.

Greetings, brother Cynic!

I wasn't talking about money specifically. I'm just pointing out that dating (with the goal of a monogamous marriage) is a zero-sum game; in order for you to win, all her other suitors must lose. In that game it's highly relevant how you stack up against others, not just objective benchmarks.

In your example, if every man was thoughtful enough to know to get her massages, then the gesture would no longer have any differentiating effect. Similarly for muscle tone, education, penis size, money, or whatever she happens to care about.

Of course, not worrying about how others are doing and focusing on self-improvement is probably the best strategy to becoming better than other people. But to say it's irrelevant how others are doing relative to oneself is just wrong.

> That kind of effort is an order of magnitude more effective at finding and keeping the woman of your dreams. And you don't have to have a ton of money or a huge penis or be six feet tall to do it.

But you explicitly have not done this...

Not understanding. Have not done what? If you mean finding and keeping her, well, we're still dating after having known each other for several years and some nasty experiences. Our relationship gets a little better every day. I'm satisfied with where we're at right now. I'm not ready to get married and she's not ready to settle down yet.

More to the point, you don't keep a woman by locking her in a cage. You do it by being the first person she calls or texts to tell about her day.

Kept the woman of your dreams. For most people this implies a monogamous relationship. Unless I miss-understood that is not what you're describing?

I edited my response to answer your question.

All I can respond to this is good luck and I hope you stay happy.

Thanks. It's been rocky at times, jealousy does get in the way from time to time. But it's been an amazing learning experience getting to know her and build a friendship with her. Both of us are only going to evolve and grow over time, both together and apart. I wouldn't trade that for anything.

Oh my....you are dating her and she spent her birthday weekend with fully loaded(pun intended) rich guy.

Run man, run!

We are dating. Not in a relationship. She can spend her time however she wants, and I'm not going to hold it against her for exploring her options.

She is likely to appreciate deeper commitment above all your well-selected gifts.

That's a great observation, thanks. I will think on it.

All the men I know who view the dating "game" as zero-sum in this way are divorced, on their way to divorce, or on their way to another marriage without having addressed any of the issues that led to their prior divorces (suggesting yet another one is in the cards down the road).

Like Joshua eventually learned, the only way to win this game is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?

People of all socioeconomic statuses somehow find a way to get married. Ultimately, finding someone to spend the rest of your life with doesn't come down to the simple question of "being better"—the qualifications for a good mate are very specific to every person.

> the qualifications for a good mate are very specific to every person

The set of qualifications is specific to every person, sure, but whatever is in that set for a given woman, you need to be better than the competition at those qualifications.

Unless you're fine with marrying just anyone, the thesis of the blog post doesn't hold for dating; it's not enough to be 'decent' or even 'good'.

Attraction is fairly irrational and subjective, it's also fairly random. Not everybody is everywhere all the time, so there's a "right place, right time" chance aspect to it.

Now, if you're talking about attracting a particular individual you've chosen to pursue, well then things get a bit more difficult.

It is zero sum over the entire Earth, but not as zero sum as you think, locally in one country - It's quite possible for any middle class man with a decent job to travel to a less affluent country and marry a very attractive wife they would want.

You have to share the piece of your pie your country has, but nothing is stopping you from grabbing at another country's piece of the pie.

Presumably the way you might be 'better' if you follow this kind of advice is that you're probably more likely to be happy, well adjusted, and able to give of your time and energy. Lots of women will value that over extra wealth.

You will probably just want one that is good enough and which happens to be available. In the end, why would she need to be better than good enough?