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Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by lvs on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:39PM (#10775070)
Stuck the landing! Congratulations! 10/10. Would land again.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by kibwen on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:40PM (#10775081)
Completely amazing! I'm sure I heard a "holy shit" or two there in the audience. :)

EDIT: One question for the rocket scientists here: exactly how reusable do they expect these returned first stage rockets to be? What is the process of certifying that a returned rocket is fit to fly, and what components are most likely to need repairing/replacing with each launch?

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by tokipin on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:56PM (#10775183)
This is in the "to be optimized" bracket. If they can get any kind of consistency landing even heavily strained rockets, they can reframe/readjust/redesign as necessary (like adding more support in areas etc).
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by teleclimber on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:02PM (#10775231)
Exactly. Now that they got one back they can actually start the process of figuring out what needs to be done to make the first stage as reusable as possible. It's a long road, but they can finally make some headway now.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by TeMPOraL on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:54PM (#10775171)
How reusable this first stage is? They'll have to study it meticulously to find out. But what they're aiming for is to be able to just refuel it, mount new payload on top, and relight it in the span of hours.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by mhandley on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:05PM (#10775246)
Would you fly passengers on the test flight of a new plane? Yet we do that with rockets. After they've done this a bunch of times to understand any fatigue and thermal degradation problems properly, it should be safer to fly a reused rocket than a new one.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by kibwen on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:57PM (#10775200)
That's an impressively ambitious goal. Has SpaceX mentioned any willingness to use returned first stage rockets to launch astronauts? That would be the ultimate expression of their confidence in this approach, though understandably it may be a long ways off.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by mikeash on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:23PM (#10775341)
It's funny, with most vehicles you want to avoid being on a completely new, untested one. Think about it: would you be comfortable flying on a brand new 787 that had never been flown before, not even once? I sure wouldn't. Before long, maybe rockets will be like that too.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by robotresearcher on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @01:06AM (#10776131)
Depends if the first flight almost destroys the vehicle. It'll be very interesting to see how well this rocket stood up to the flight. Since orbital rockets are within epsilon of just blowing up every time any way!

Incredible project. Reusable rockets. It's science fiction coming to life again, like the 1960s.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by kibwen on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:26PM (#10775358)
You know, that's a very good point. :)
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by lmm on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @04:50AM (#10776758)
Well you want to be in the middle of the curve - you don't feel particularly comfortable flying a 30-year-old plane either (at least I don't). It's just that so far the curve for rockets is more of a spike.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by TeMPOraL on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:06PM (#10775255)
Can't find any direct quote about it, but I imagine they're thinking about it and considering it in not-so-far future, given that the new Dragon, which is going to be certified to carry astronauts, is designed to be capable to perform an abort at any time during the mission - which means it's supposed to be able to escape from the blast of an exploding first stage :).
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by dmoy on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:44PM (#10775104)
A follow-up question to that would be - how much $$ do you save per launch by reusing the first stage?
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by jacquesm on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:46PM (#10775120)
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by bryanh on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:08PM (#10775267)
The money quote:

> Musk said that a rocket's first stage accounts for three-quarters of its total price tag, so a vehicle with a reusable first stage can be produced at far less cost — assuming the hardware is fully and rapidly reusable.

~75% savings seems like a "best case scenario" number.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by jacquesm on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:14PM (#10775294)
Good enough for me. Even if it is only 25% in practice they'll own the market.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by mikeash on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:25PM (#10775348)
They're already insanely cheap compared to most competitors. This should take them to being ludicrously cheap.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by jacquesm on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:28PM (#10775371)
Let's see who tries to imitate them and do a re-use, some real competition is what's needed next.

Now for second stage re-use ;)

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by mikeash on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:44PM (#10775447)
I think SpaceX is sufficiently motivated by their man at the top that they'll keep doing great things even in the total absence of competition. But it would still be great to see others go this way, to see different approaches tried and such. It sounds like some other launchers were looking at reusability plans before (Ariane had plans for some wacky thing that would fly back just the engines) but now that it's been demonstrated to work I imagine it will become much more serious.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by TeMPOraL on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:32PM (#10775391)
And then for the crew capsule reuse... oh wait :).

Seriously though, now I'm just waiting for updates on BFR / Mars mission development progress.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by Tossrock on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @02:03AM (#10776311)
ULA is already trying to imitate them with their announced 'Vulcan' concept, where the engines eject and parachute back, but that's (many) years away from actually happening.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by simonh on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @03:12AM (#10776488)
The other important factor is how many times you get to re-use the stage, because that tells you the saving per launch. If you get to re-use it once, then on each flight you save 37.5% of the launch cost. If you re-use it again twice (3 launches of the first stage) you save 50% of the launch cost per flight (each flight costs you 1/3 of the first stage cost). And so on. That's not factoring in refurb and re-fueling costs, of course.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by escape_goat on Monday December 21, 2015 @10:27PM (#10775616)
If I understand correctly, even if they can only reuse the rocket motors, that would still be most of the 75% figure.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by __d on Monday December 21, 2015 @11:21PM (#10775804)
Aside from the cost savings, the other goal of reusing boosters is to reduce the time between launches.

The challenge for SpaceX is to inspect the booster, integrate a new second stage & payload, and relaunch in a few weeks. With a few years of work, it should be almost like a cargo jet turnaround.

ULA's Vulcan plan is to parachute the engines and pumps back, catch the rope with a helicopter, inspect and reattach to a new set of tanks. That seems likely to be a little more complex to me.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by lmm on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @04:52AM (#10776768)
The catching with a helicopter part is complex, but not time-consuming - either it works or it doesn't. The rest is probably if anything easier - I'd imagine SpaceX will have to tear down the booster entirely for inspection, at least for the first few hundred. These things are (or will be) built to be disassembled and reassembled, attaching engines and pumps to a new tank is not going to be a long and complex process.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by InclinedPlane on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:29PM (#10775379)
Lots.

There's really not a lot of costs that can add up for reuse of these stages. It'll require a bit of cleaning up, a few new bits and pieces replaced and added, and a lot of inspection work. But most of the cost of the stage is in manufacturing the engines and tanks, so it should add up to enormous savings, even if it's relatively costly to reuse each stage compared to the theoretical limits.

Edit: the flip-side is that the reliability and robustness improvements from reusability may be as big a win as cost. Currently it costs tens of millions of dollars to launch a rocket to orbit, which means it's almost never done except as part of a paid launch. Moreover, despite the seemingly high number of launches very few of those launches represent expanding the test-envelope much, every single launch is typically straight down the middle of the performance envelope, to maximize the chance of success. That results in learning very little about these vehicles despite how much they've been flown. By introducing reuse and dropping the cost of flight it may become possible to do real test programs, which would make it possible to determine the flight envelope characteristics of vehicles and help lead to improving designs over time.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by jacquesm on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:43PM (#10775443)
And with the amount of redundancy built in they might even go with 'acceptable loss' in terms of engines that cut out early in flight. Which makes you wonder how many engines they could lose and still complete a mission.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by mikeash on Monday December 21, 2015 @10:20PM (#10775592)
Falcon 9 is designed to withstand losing one engine and still make it to orbit.

Reusability makes it more interesting. There's a lot of extra fuel on board now which could be used to make up for lost engines if you're willing to throw away the first stage.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by twistedpair on Monday December 21, 2015 @10:45PM (#10775678)
Good point. Orbcomm already paid off the booster. Now SpaceX can take it up for a joy ride for only a few hundred grand of gas and really fly the fins off it.

I bet they relaunch this booster on their own dime as a demo.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by molyss on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @01:07AM (#10776133)
I have no inside knowledge, but I'd suspect Orbcomm paid next to nothing for this launch.

Between "You'll be the first launch since the last one... You know, that one with a small anomaly..." and fact that this was the first launch of a new version of the falcon 9 (with slightly different engines, cooler/more pressurized O2), I know that if I were negociating for Orbcomm, I'd ask spaceX to cross the last digit on their bill (and probably have a much more expensive insurance policy in return).

And to delay a _commercial_ launch in order to accommodate weather for the _landing_ ? AFAIK, that's another world's first in history and I think that tells a lot on the underlying story.

Don't get me wrong, this is an amazing achievement, and the economics of it don't really matter when it comes to the technical prowess

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by ansible on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @07:48AM (#10777401)
Is was a substantial discount, but not "next to nothing". Something like $42 million for two launches, versus $65 million for one launch. And they've been patient with delays and such, which costs a lot of money too.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by grkvlt on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @03:18PM (#10780123)
The launch service provider has the last say on the date of the launch. The customer provides orbital parameters, and the launch just needs to make sure that insertion happens. Delaying for weather is pretty common, and as long as the payload gets to where it's supposed to, everyone's happy. The Orbcomm contract wouldn't have had a launch date specified, except in terms of NET (no earlier than) or similar. The launch windows are decided by SpaceX based on the requirements, and are the other constraint, and there was a window on both days.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by InclinedPlane on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @02:34AM (#10776384)
For this launch, Orbcomm paid a pittance. They paid Falcon 1 prices for a Falcon 9 launch.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by mikeash on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @11:06AM (#10778452)
Not quite. These satellites were indeed originally supposed to go up on a Falcon 1, but not 11 at a time. They got a pretty big discount, but not quite a pittance.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by gchokov on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @07:16AM (#10777269)
Total nonsense. They pay a lot. It's the Insurance company who covers the losses.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by gozur88 on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:40PM (#10775423)
Depends on the procedure they ultimately decided to use for the prep. Originally the the shuttle main engines had to be taken apart, with every part inspected before the next launch. If they have to do something like that there's not much point.

But if they can get it to point where it's a matter of gassing it up for the next flight, that's a huge savings. Fuel is a few hundred grand for a rocket that costs sixty million dollars. It's nothing, basically.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by mikeash on Monday December 21, 2015 @10:15PM (#10775577)
Hopefully it won't be anything like the Shuttle. The Shuttle was bleeding edge in a dozen different ways. The engines were extremely high performance and that made them fragile.

SpaceX seems to build things a lot more low-key. They don't use fancy propellants, their engines aren't particularly efficient, and overall they seem to go more for robustness and simplicity.

(Simplicity doesn't really apply for a crazy-ass landing scheme. But aside from that....)

Obviously it remains to be seen, but I think it's likely to be a lot more gas-and-go than the Shuttle.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by gozur88 on Wednesday December 23, 2015 @07:36PM (#10786461)
Yes, I expect you're right about that, and furthermore I expect SpaceX will be willing to make substantial design changes in support of that effort.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by jacquesm on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:47PM (#10775126)
NARS but probably comparable to shuttle engines and body.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by teleclimber on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:15PM (#10775298)
The shuttle's main engines were extremely high-performance. They were marvels of engineering but required a lot of work between flights. Just like cars can be optimized for performance or reliability (think Honda Civic versus Ferrari) rocket engines can be made more maintainable and tolerant to long use periods. Not saying Spacex engines are Hondas, but they are probably way less trouble than SSMEs.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by twistedpair on Monday December 21, 2015 @10:51PM (#10775709)
Soyez has been flying nearly 50 years. It's the dump truck of space, with 1700 launches to date. Compare that to the much more elaborate Shuttle's 135. Elon would rather have the dump truck than the Ferrari.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by cornholio on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:57PM (#10775197)
The Shuttle engines operate on hydrogen which burns very cleanly. RP-1 will leave the engine dirty with coking, so they definitely need to clean re-assemble each engine.

On the other hand, the solid boosters of the Space Shuttle were severely damaged by the impact and corrosion of the sea water, after "recovery" they were essentially a source of parts for new boosters.

Overall, I really hope they can improve re-usability above what the Space Shuttle achieved.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by rst on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:05PM (#10775251)
FWIW, SpaceX has launched stages after full-length (3 minute plus) burns on the test stand, on a schedule that wouldn't allow time for that kind of teardown. They'll need to do something to clean the engines out eventually, but if several minutes of operation were enough to cause serious gunking, then between those test runs and the multiple runs of the grasshopper test vehicle for landing sequences, they've seen it and know how to deal with it.

(Incidentally, SpaceX is known for keeping some aspect of their operations trade secret, rather than patenting. So, if they had some solvent that dissolved the gunk and simplified the cleanup process, or some such similar trick, it's likely that no one outside the company would know about it.)

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by JshWright on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:03PM (#10775236)
The first stage goes through at least one full mission duration burn and another ignition before finally launching. So they don't need to be reassembled completely between each firing. I assume they have been repeatedly firing engines for a while now to see how many relights they can get.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by oroup on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:46PM (#10775457)
The hydrogen in the Space Shuttle Main Engine creates embrittlement in the alloys of the engine. [1][2] The launch sequence also involved running the engines at 104.5% of rated capacity. [3] Before Block II of the engines, the turbopumps needed to be disassembled and rebuilt between flights. [4]

I have no real idea how significant coking of the Merlin engine is, but the SSMEs were hardly "clean".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement [2] http://www.tms.org/Superalloys/10.7449/1991/Superalloys_1991... [3] http://www.interspacenews.com/FeatureArticle/tabid/130/Defau... [4] http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/174534main_ssme.pdf

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by rtkwe on Monday December 21, 2015 @11:02PM (#10775741)
IIRC the 104% was additional performance they enabled through upgrades and design improvements beyond the original design not over-driving them.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by mikeash on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @11:09AM (#10778475)
That right. The 100% level was set at some point during the design process. Later they found ways to slightly increase the thrust. Rather than recalibrate all the numbers, they just kept using the original "100%" and called the new level "104%."

Basically, it's "104% of what the engineers circa 1975 thought the level would be," not 104% of what the hardware was rated for.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by jacquesm on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:02PM (#10775232)
They did re-light the engines, curious how many times in a row they can pull that trick before contamination becomes a problem.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by kibwen on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:54PM (#10775169)
The first stage rocket doesn't go nearly as high or as fast as the shuttle though, no? AFAIK the shuttle had to have its heat shield replaced after each return trip, and it landed aerodynamically rather than via rocket power. I'd presume that the powered descent of the first stage means that it doesn't need any sort of heat shielding, at the expense of more stress on the engines, thus requiring a bespoke inspection process.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by jacquesm on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:56PM (#10775192)
It doesn't have a heat shield because it simply doesn't go fast enough relative to the atmosphere to need one, it does not 're-enter' the atmosphere at nearly the same horizontal speeds the shuttle did (from full orbital velocity down to landing speed). Even so, the stresses from heating up, cooling down, launch and landing are such that they will likely magnaflux that whole thing from one end to the other just to be sure there aren't any defects, especially until they have more experience, they'll pick it apart and inspect each and every bit to see how well it performed. Later on when they have much more data they might decide to swap out parts only every so many launches if possible.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by igravious on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:54PM (#10775173)
Got my daughter out of bed at T-5 to watch the launch sequence and possibly history being made. Thrilling to watch it with her, tried to give her an idea of how momentous this is. Wonderful. Congrats to all at SpaceX!
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by lcr94 on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:42PM (#10775099)
Humanity just made progress! Amazing.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by xvf33 on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:40PM (#10775084)
Yup, congrats to the whole team. Damn amazing achievement!
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by jonkiddy on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:59PM (#10775209)
I had the whole family watch. They'll remember this moment for a long time to come. Well done!
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by byw on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:42PM (#10775098)
History is made!
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by fitzwatermellow on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:43PM (#10775103)
Congrats! Massive step into the era of reusable rockets.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by rfrank on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:40PM (#10775079)
amazing