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Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by dmoy on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:44PM (#10775104)
A follow-up question to that would be - how much $$ do you save per launch by reusing the first stage?
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by jacquesm on Monday December 21, 2015 @08:46PM (#10775120)
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by bryanh on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:08PM (#10775267)
The money quote:

> Musk said that a rocket's first stage accounts for three-quarters of its total price tag, so a vehicle with a reusable first stage can be produced at far less cost — assuming the hardware is fully and rapidly reusable.

~75% savings seems like a "best case scenario" number.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by jacquesm on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:14PM (#10775294)
Good enough for me. Even if it is only 25% in practice they'll own the market.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by mikeash on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:25PM (#10775348)
They're already insanely cheap compared to most competitors. This should take them to being ludicrously cheap.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by jacquesm on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:28PM (#10775371)
Let's see who tries to imitate them and do a re-use, some real competition is what's needed next.

Now for second stage re-use ;)

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by mikeash on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:44PM (#10775447)
I think SpaceX is sufficiently motivated by their man at the top that they'll keep doing great things even in the total absence of competition. But it would still be great to see others go this way, to see different approaches tried and such. It sounds like some other launchers were looking at reusability plans before (Ariane had plans for some wacky thing that would fly back just the engines) but now that it's been demonstrated to work I imagine it will become much more serious.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by TeMPOraL on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:32PM (#10775391)
And then for the crew capsule reuse... oh wait :).

Seriously though, now I'm just waiting for updates on BFR / Mars mission development progress.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by Tossrock on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @02:03AM (#10776311)
ULA is already trying to imitate them with their announced 'Vulcan' concept, where the engines eject and parachute back, but that's (many) years away from actually happening.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by simonh on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @03:12AM (#10776488)
The other important factor is how many times you get to re-use the stage, because that tells you the saving per launch. If you get to re-use it once, then on each flight you save 37.5% of the launch cost. If you re-use it again twice (3 launches of the first stage) you save 50% of the launch cost per flight (each flight costs you 1/3 of the first stage cost). And so on. That's not factoring in refurb and re-fueling costs, of course.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by escape_goat on Monday December 21, 2015 @10:27PM (#10775616)
If I understand correctly, even if they can only reuse the rocket motors, that would still be most of the 75% figure.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by __d on Monday December 21, 2015 @11:21PM (#10775804)
Aside from the cost savings, the other goal of reusing boosters is to reduce the time between launches.

The challenge for SpaceX is to inspect the booster, integrate a new second stage & payload, and relaunch in a few weeks. With a few years of work, it should be almost like a cargo jet turnaround.

ULA's Vulcan plan is to parachute the engines and pumps back, catch the rope with a helicopter, inspect and reattach to a new set of tanks. That seems likely to be a little more complex to me.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by lmm on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @04:52AM (#10776768)
The catching with a helicopter part is complex, but not time-consuming - either it works or it doesn't. The rest is probably if anything easier - I'd imagine SpaceX will have to tear down the booster entirely for inspection, at least for the first few hundred. These things are (or will be) built to be disassembled and reassembled, attaching engines and pumps to a new tank is not going to be a long and complex process.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by InclinedPlane on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:29PM (#10775379)
Lots.

There's really not a lot of costs that can add up for reuse of these stages. It'll require a bit of cleaning up, a few new bits and pieces replaced and added, and a lot of inspection work. But most of the cost of the stage is in manufacturing the engines and tanks, so it should add up to enormous savings, even if it's relatively costly to reuse each stage compared to the theoretical limits.

Edit: the flip-side is that the reliability and robustness improvements from reusability may be as big a win as cost. Currently it costs tens of millions of dollars to launch a rocket to orbit, which means it's almost never done except as part of a paid launch. Moreover, despite the seemingly high number of launches very few of those launches represent expanding the test-envelope much, every single launch is typically straight down the middle of the performance envelope, to maximize the chance of success. That results in learning very little about these vehicles despite how much they've been flown. By introducing reuse and dropping the cost of flight it may become possible to do real test programs, which would make it possible to determine the flight envelope characteristics of vehicles and help lead to improving designs over time.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by jacquesm on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:43PM (#10775443)
And with the amount of redundancy built in they might even go with 'acceptable loss' in terms of engines that cut out early in flight. Which makes you wonder how many engines they could lose and still complete a mission.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by mikeash on Monday December 21, 2015 @10:20PM (#10775592)
Falcon 9 is designed to withstand losing one engine and still make it to orbit.

Reusability makes it more interesting. There's a lot of extra fuel on board now which could be used to make up for lost engines if you're willing to throw away the first stage.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by twistedpair on Monday December 21, 2015 @10:45PM (#10775678)
Good point. Orbcomm already paid off the booster. Now SpaceX can take it up for a joy ride for only a few hundred grand of gas and really fly the fins off it.

I bet they relaunch this booster on their own dime as a demo.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by molyss on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @01:07AM (#10776133)
I have no inside knowledge, but I'd suspect Orbcomm paid next to nothing for this launch.

Between "You'll be the first launch since the last one... You know, that one with a small anomaly..." and fact that this was the first launch of a new version of the falcon 9 (with slightly different engines, cooler/more pressurized O2), I know that if I were negociating for Orbcomm, I'd ask spaceX to cross the last digit on their bill (and probably have a much more expensive insurance policy in return).

And to delay a _commercial_ launch in order to accommodate weather for the _landing_ ? AFAIK, that's another world's first in history and I think that tells a lot on the underlying story.

Don't get me wrong, this is an amazing achievement, and the economics of it don't really matter when it comes to the technical prowess

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by ansible on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @07:48AM (#10777401)
Is was a substantial discount, but not "next to nothing". Something like $42 million for two launches, versus $65 million for one launch. And they've been patient with delays and such, which costs a lot of money too.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by grkvlt on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @03:18PM (#10780123)
The launch service provider has the last say on the date of the launch. The customer provides orbital parameters, and the launch just needs to make sure that insertion happens. Delaying for weather is pretty common, and as long as the payload gets to where it's supposed to, everyone's happy. The Orbcomm contract wouldn't have had a launch date specified, except in terms of NET (no earlier than) or similar. The launch windows are decided by SpaceX based on the requirements, and are the other constraint, and there was a window on both days.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by InclinedPlane on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @02:34AM (#10776384)
For this launch, Orbcomm paid a pittance. They paid Falcon 1 prices for a Falcon 9 launch.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by mikeash on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @11:06AM (#10778452)
Not quite. These satellites were indeed originally supposed to go up on a Falcon 1, but not 11 at a time. They got a pretty big discount, but not quite a pittance.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by gchokov on Tuesday December 22, 2015 @07:16AM (#10777269)
Total nonsense. They pay a lot. It's the Insurance company who covers the losses.
Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by gozur88 on Monday December 21, 2015 @09:40PM (#10775423)
Depends on the procedure they ultimately decided to use for the prep. Originally the the shuttle main engines had to be taken apart, with every part inspected before the next launch. If they have to do something like that there's not much point.

But if they can get it to point where it's a matter of gassing it up for the next flight, that's a huge savings. Fuel is a few hundred grand for a rocket that costs sixty million dollars. It's nothing, basically.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by mikeash on Monday December 21, 2015 @10:15PM (#10775577)
Hopefully it won't be anything like the Shuttle. The Shuttle was bleeding edge in a dozen different ways. The engines were extremely high performance and that made them fragile.

SpaceX seems to build things a lot more low-key. They don't use fancy propellants, their engines aren't particularly efficient, and overall they seem to go more for robustness and simplicity.

(Simplicity doesn't really apply for a crazy-ass landing scheme. But aside from that....)

Obviously it remains to be seen, but I think it's likely to be a lot more gas-and-go than the Shuttle.

Re:SpaceX launch webcast: Orbcomm-2 Mission [video] by gozur88 on Wednesday December 23, 2015 @07:36PM (#10786461)
Yes, I expect you're right about that, and furthermore I expect SpaceX will be willing to make substantial design changes in support of that effort.