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Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by aggieben on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @11:21AM (#10656524)
There's a stark difference between a free and voluntary association of like-minded people and a so-called "safe space", which uses a pretext of "victimization" to capriciously thought control others who simply committed the offense of disagreeing or criticizing. If you hate Christianity, why would you go to this school? If you aren't willing to follow behavioral rules, why would you go to this school? If you think philosophy should only be secular, then why would you go to this school? Schools like this generally make no secret of their expectations for students and faculty.

If you say anything negative about the religion or its teachings, you are kicked out.

Really? Citation please; I simply don't believe this. Most Christian universities that I have any knowledge of invite (or at least aren't averse to it) tough discussion, and allow for a pretty wide range of critical thought about interpretations of the Bible, how Christianity should relate to politics, culture, science, and many other subjects.

Until a few years ago, you could major in something that amounted to being a 'preacher's wife' (I can't remember the name of the major, but that was its goal).

And this is evidence of what, exactly?

"Safe-spaces", on the other hand, are cudgels of fear, handed to anyone claiming "victimization" to be capriciously used against people with whom they simply disagree and want to shut up. The reason they're even a thing is because school administrators themselves are beholden to the same fear. That's not at all like free association.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by mc32 on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @11:42AM (#10656734)
If all self selecting groups would address the issue as exemplified in this case, I think we'd be better off. While I could not care less about this college or its mission, I'm glad they are confronting the issue of manufactured offense. Taking offence at anything which makes someone feel uncomfortable mentally/psychologically. People should be able to deal with the ugliness of reality as a matter of course rather than something which affronts them or something which calls their existence into question.

Harassment, of course, is something different and malicious and should be confronted uncovered and called out, but simple discourse, antagonistic as may be, is something humans should learn how to engage with with relative ease, rather than recoil and become less able to deal with the realities of living in a complex and undanitized society.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by jonknee on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:44PM (#10657290)
> Really? Citation please; I simply don't believe this. Most Christian universities that I have any knowledge of invite (or at least aren't averse to it) tough discussion, and allow for a pretty wide range of critical thought about interpretations of the Bible, how Christianity should relate to politics, culture, science, and many other subjects.

You have missed out on the wave of evangelical schools that market to parents as babysitters. Here are some quotes from the OKWU student handbook:

http://www.okwu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/2013-2014-Stu...

> Students should understand that all traffic on the Internet on campus is capable of being viewed, monitored, and logged by OKWU

View porn and you can be expelled. Might not want to search for birth control either.

> Possession or use of alcohol on or off campus, contributing to the use of alcohol by other OKWU students, and/or being present in an environment where alcohol is being consumed is prohibited. Use, possession, purchasing, etc. of tobacco is prohibited.

Note the on or OFF campus bit. This is where the evangelical babysitting really kicks in.

> By virtue of their voluntary enrollment, all students, regardless of age, residency, or status agree to engage in sexual behavior exclusively within the context of marital heterosexual monogamy.

> Gambling, pornography, immodesty, profanity, crude, vulgar, or offensive language, and disrespectful behavior, such as gossip, dishonesty, and malice are also viewed as inappropriate behavior for all students. The University supports the stance of The Wesleyan Church on the issue of dancing.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by aggieben on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:56PM (#10657378)
So, this has everything to do with you not liking how this school runs itself, and not a thing to do with the claim "If you say anything negative about the religion or its teachings, you are kicked out," and not a thing to do with "safe spaces".
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by jonknee on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:03PM (#10657434)
You can be expelled for dancing, they're not having legitimate discussions about religion.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by ams6110 on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:54PM (#10657354)
All universities (and for that matter, employers) have a code of conduct or ethics that defines standards of behavior and expectations. How is that babysitting?
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by aeturnum on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:09PM (#10657484)
The term 'babysitting' as defined in the article it somewhat nebulous, but seems to at least include policing speech to avoid offending others.

However, the school's official rules tell students they should not engage in, "profanity, crude, vulgar, or offensive language, and disrespectful behavior [including] gossip, dishonesty, and malice." The school has a right to define behavior requirements for the student body (all of whom are adults who can choose to attend or not). However, if they are going to post an attack on a student who wishes to expand the speech restrictions on campus, it seems reasonable for them to explain why the student's ideas about restricting speech are bad and their ideas are good.

In a more general sense - most people agree there should be some limits on speech (fire in a theatre, etc). However, when someone suggests a limit on speech they don't like the reaction is like the one in the article: shocked disbelief that someone would want to restrict speech! I don't have strong feelings about "safe spaces" and the like, but I don't think the idea is that strange or hard to understand and that people should at least talk about it within our never-ending discussion about how we want to live with each other.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by DanBC on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:06PM (#10657450)
This one tells you how to dress (modestly), and not to dance, and not to go to the cinema, and not to smoke tobacco, and not to drink alcohol (even if you're off campus).

A christian extremist complains about a student who had complained about a sermon, and says that viewpoints need to be challenged. It's useful to see if that extremist is a massive hypocrite or not. In this case it seems he is.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by jonknee on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:02PM (#10657426)
For starters it deals with banning legal off campus behavior.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by undersuit on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:06PM (#10657454)
>The University supports the stance of The Wesleyan Church on the issue of dancing.

No dancing guys and gals, it encourages the encroachment of evil upon the home.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by darkr on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:46PM (#10657739)
You wouldn't joke about it if you saw my dancing.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by maldusiecle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:11PM (#10657020)
Gee, think you have enough scare quotes around? There absolutely are victims on college campuses--victims of sexual assault, of racist acts of violence, of acts of intimidation based on their sexual orientation. I knew people who suffered these things. It's crap to act as if this is all made up.

The purpose of safe spaces isn't to impose thought control, it's to allow people who have suffered a chance to recover. You can choose to enter one, or you can choose to stay out of one. It's purely a matter of free association. (Perhaps you're thinking of "speech codes"? I agree in opposing those, but it's a separate issue.) A safe space is nothing more than a "free and voluntary association of like-minded people."

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by belovedeagle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:45PM (#10657298)
The recent outcry against "safe spaces" has been against those established in public spaces and enforced with calls for violence. That's far from a case of free association.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by maldusiecle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:13PM (#10657514)
For this I'd like citations.

I'd point out, though, that even if a handful of people have been using the idea of "safe spaces" wrongly, that doesn't delegitimize the concept itself. If a few students are doing wrong in the name of "safe spaces," the answer is to argue against those particular students, not against other, unrelated safe spaces.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by ForHackernews on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @02:51PM (#10658222)
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by Agustus on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:01PM (#10657414)
What of those who are not in college, do we provide them who have experienced these acts a safe space?

Are college students, the supposed vanguard of curious minds, closing their minds and reducing their ability to deal with the world they live in?

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by maldusiecle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:09PM (#10657481)
People outside of college can and absolutely should have access to safe spaces, yes. Why wouldn't/shouldn't they?

As for your second question, it's so obviously disconnected from what has been said so far that it's hardly worth even answering. A victim of homophobic intimidation who wants a space free of homophobic intimidation is not "reducing their ability to deal with the world they live in." You're stringing right-wing jargon terms together in ways that obviously don't make sense. A person doesn't have any less of a "curious mind" simply because they want to spend time in a place free of intimidation, violence, or hostility.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by Agustus on Monday December 14, 2015 @01:44PM (#10732916)
What are these safe spaces? Houses, then what is a dorm, police stations, then what is campus police offices, or a car, which is available to most students on campus.

What is intimidation in your example? You are projecting a generalized concept that does not have a defined impact on a person. Is it intimidation if someone posts a comment on a website that they are for male/female marriage only, a person yells out a slur on the street, a person walks up to another and says: "We do not like your kind here?" The last item on this list should be the one that a state agency involves itself in as it is the only where physical harm can occur. The others are simply words.

As an aside, in future discussions, try not to resort to simplistic arguments like "right-wing jargon terms" to dismiss an alternative view point. I was worried for a moment you may have a point until I read that.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by wan23 on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:29PM (#10657188)
The idea of a safe space is very much similar to the way a christian university might work. There are clubs and groups on campus that declare that the room in which they operate, while they are in session, as a place where they are free to be themselves. Like if for example, there were a meeting of comic book lovers and someone comes in and says "maybe you guys should get out more" they might ask that person to leave. And it also shouldn't be a giant leap to see why they might want to get people to stop saying that to them wherever they happen to be, and so they might call for their safe space to be expanded. The problem is that while it's perfectly fine to have small safe spaces in which everyone agrees, if you try to expand them around other people they might feel like their rights are being trampled upon.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by Domenic_S on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:44PM (#10657286)
> if for example, there were a meeting of comic book lovers and someone comes in and says "maybe you guys should get out more" they might ask that person to leave

The story in the article is more like if there were a meeting of comic book lovers and someone comes in and says "your love of comic books is offensive and victimizes me because I don't love comic books, you need to stop right away" and then pulls the fire alarm.

Having a private place where certain views are protected is fine. My house is a 'safe space' for my family. But to voluntarily enter my house and then tell me I'm victimizing you is just silly.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by sanderjd on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:13PM (#10657511)
You are being hyperbolic to a silly degree. The story in the article appears to be about a private conversation between two individuals. Nobody is pulling any fire alarms, metaphorically or otherwise.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by intortus on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @11:39AM (#10656708)
> "Safe-spaces", on the other hand, are cudgels of fear, handed to anyone claiming "victimization" to be capriciously used against people with whom they simply disagree and want to shut up.

Oh please. Now who's fear-cudgeling whom? You're being extremely melodramatic in reaction to a questionable anecdote.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by nightspirit on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:02PM (#10656933)
"Safe-spaces" are practical application of the principle, accidentally unearthed by xyz-equality movements of the 20th century, that people generally don't like hurting others and hence you can control them by appearing to be hurt, whether you are or not.

People modeling victim behaviors to remove everything that causes them discomfort aren't something to be afraid of, but also their cries for attention aren't something to be treated too seriously. Allowing them to get their way just reinforces further learning of this silly strategy.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by intortus on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:07PM (#10656971)
This dismissive explanation doesn't account for why stories like this are so attractive to the population of sites like this. It's like people are getting off on superficially demonstrating how emotionally robust they are (I'm not convinced).
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by nightspirit on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:21PM (#10657124)
I'm not robust, I'm just angr^H^H^H^H victimized by people who try to make me feel bad for their emotional issues.

I try to explain that a) most people have little reason to feel consistently victimized, besides just a bad habit and b) this way of communicating isn't really productive.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by doktrin on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @11:28AM (#10656594)
Agreed. The parent was making a fairly disingenuous comparison.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by cma on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:04PM (#10657436)
>I simply don't believe this.

http://prospect.org/article/report-bob-jones-university-resp...

>There were other systemic problems in BJU’s counseling program. The same staff in charge of counseling were also often involved in BJU’s disciplinary infrastructure—in a school where students could get in significant trouble for an astonishing array of infractions, from not keeping their rooms clean enough to going off campus without permission. Students routinely were expelled without notice.

>In an uneasy mix of roles, Jim Berg served as both the head counselor and head disciplinarian. But the problem was broader than his particular purview, as victims described an environment where they were afraid to come forward to get help after being raped, because they feared being punished for breaking another rule during their attack. One student who was struggling with the revelation of her childhood abuse told GRACE she was placed on disciplinary counseling after she was caught smoking cigarettes, and Chancellor Bob Jones III attempted to impose an even harsher sentence of restricting her to campus for a semester.

>Particularly harrowing was the experience of a student who alleged that her pastor had been raping her since she was 15, and who came to BJU officials when she became pregnant as a result of ongoing coercive sex with the pastor. But because she had lied about going off campus to meet him, BJU kicked her out of school.

>BJU officials defended its comingling of counseling and discipline as something that made sense within the school’s enduring adherence to the practice of in loco parentis— the quasi-parental role that most colleges abandoned fifty years ago—but students described its effect as both chilling and retaliatory.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by Retric on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:09PM (#10657001)
Collage is often not a free choice for many students. Parent or guardians are likely to pick such places and students who 'wake up to reality' or 'lose faith' are a long way from voluntary association.

Now if you want to argue about how narrow blinkers need to be before a horse is blind then your just missing the point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkers_(horse_tack)

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:27PM (#10657160)
You're right; a collage is a piece of art made of pieces of other art, rearranged.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by nickbauman on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:03PM (#10656946)
The real question is how could such a university like OKWU get and keep accreditation with this kind of regime? OKWU is essentially a religious commune masquerading as a university.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:25PM (#10657150)
There's a stark difference between what people who dislike the concept of "safe space" think a "safe space" is and what a "safe space" actually is.

A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die.

A "safe space" is a place where people can discuss the actual issues of hatred, bigotry and violence without fear of reprise for being the hated, the attacked, the marginalized.

There's a stark difference between "This isn't a place for saying hurtful things; this is a place for talking about why saying those things are hurtful. That's why we're not letting you in here while you continue to marginalize the oppressed. Let's talk about why you think the oppressed should be marginalized instead."

All the anti-safe-space discussion on Hacker News lately is truly, horribly, fucking disgustingly indicative of the inherent sexism and flat-out hatred that worms its way through developer culture.

They are absofuckinglutely not cudgels of fear. And people who claim they are need to take a real fucking hard look at themselves and their views on those who are verbally bullied, physically attacked, raped, and murdered for being who they fucking are.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by nkassis on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:45PM (#10657301)
I was following your argument until this part: "All the anti-safe-space discussion on Hacker News lately is truly, horribly, fucking disgustingly indicative of the inherent sexism and flat-out hatred that worms its way through developer culture." I don't see how you made this connection. The way it's worded seems to imply that holding opinions that safe space have issues in practice would lead to being sexist and have hatred (which I presume you meant against oppressed groups generally for which safe spaces are added). I disagree strongly with this.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:00PM (#10657409)
Holding the opinion that safe spaces are cudgels of fear used to intimidate people probably indicates exactly what I said it did.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by tristor on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:20PM (#10657569)
At this point, I realize you're trolling, but in the interest of anyone else reading I feel it's appropriate to reply. I'm someone who pretty universally supports the rights of others to be themselves, however that might be, and be treated with respect as a human being.

That said, the term "safe space" is something I've never personally encountered being used in the context you present it in. When a group of like-minded people come together in a private space, they don't then declare "This place is a safe space for $x people". It's obvious that everyone present is of like-mind, and those who are there for purposes other than discussion of the topic at hand can be expelled through social means as a consensus action of the group without any need for authority involvement.

Meanwhile, I often hear the term "safe space" used by people when they want to take over a shared space to insulate themselves from people who might disagree with them or maybe even be bigots towards them, while in public. I am not in any way arguing that bigotry is socially acceptable, but it is protected speech, and while it is perfectly appropriate to tell people that their bigotry is offensive, inappropriate, and unwelcome, it's not appropriate to ask that an authority come in and forcibly establish a zone in a shared space where-in some speech is okay and other speech is not.

My opinion, which I think is largely in-line with the person you replied to, is not one born out of hatred or bigotry, it's born out of concern about the death of dissent. It's a concern that our culture is shifting to one where everyone lives in an echo chamber and is intolerant of any ideas not of their own making. It is perfectly acceptable as a society to be intolerant of intolerance, and that includes both intolerance based in bigotry as well as intolerance based in delusion. This is not an argument in favor of people "just taking it" when others behave in inappropriate ways towards them, but it is a plea for reason around dissent. Respectful disagreement is not offensive or inappropriate, even though some people may use disrespectful terms in their dissent which themselves are offensive or inappropriate, that does not mean that all people who disagree are inherently offensive. It is not oppression to disagree with someone, it is oppression to prevent dissenting opinions.

Given that so much of the influence and respect people in the public eye have these days is based on the appearance that they're socially/politically appropriate, it's very clear how claims of victimhood can be used to intimidate. In some cases, I don't have much sympathy for those who have come under fire since they are in a position to clearly state their position and walk away relatively unscathed, but some people unfortunately are not in that situation. Take for instance, the two Yale professors who clearly argued for school administrators to allow students to define their own standards and for students to have a discussion, instead were reviled unfairly by some students who instead want administrators to use their authority to impose speech controls. Unfortunately, those Yale professors have less influence with which to save themselves than the administrators who more often come under fire.

Perhaps the most confusing thing to me about this whole situation is that in most cases the people calling for "safe spaces" are people who are part of marginalized groups or are saying that they act on behalf of marginalized groups. The social concepts surrounding free association, free speech, and dissent are there to protect marginalized groups. It allows them to exist, gather, and discuss their ideas, thoughts, experiences, and feelings and to publicly disagree with people who are in the majority groups and be protected from the oppression of being silenced by authority while doing so. It seems strange to me that the people claiming to be proponents of marginalized groups would want to take away these protections from anyone.

I could write more, but I don't think it would lend anything else to the point I'm trying to make. If anyone reading this is unable to understand the difference between free association of like-minded people in private spaces vs trying to enforce speech controls on everyone, including those who may not be like-minded, in a shared space, and why the latter might be concerning to many for reasons that do not originate from any personal hatred or bigotry, I will attempt to clarify further. Otherwise, I hope the above is well-stated enough to put forward that position.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by aggieben on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:34PM (#10657651)
Yes, exactly right. Thank you for more clearly articulating what I seemed to have scrawled out with crayons in comparison.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by shiitake on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @03:07PM (#10658356)
this!

thank you for the articulate reply.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:40PM (#10657683)
> it's not appropriate to ask that an authority come in and forcibly establish a zone in a shared space where-in some speech is okay and other speech is not.

How do you feel about your HR department and their anti-discrimination and harassment policies? :)

You get more protections from harassment in the workplace than students get on campus.

Tolerance of intolerance (e.g., hate speech) leads inevitability to the extinction of tolerance itself. Discussions on why intolerance exists and what can be done to combat it are precisely why safe spaces exist. And yes, I believe university campuses should be exclusively safe places. Hate speech itself has no place in an institute of education - just as it has no place in the workplace. Discussions about hate speech, on the other hand, absolutely do.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by ThatGeoGuy on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @03:17PM (#10658417)
> Tolerance of intolerance (e.g., hate speech) leads inevitability to the extinction of tolerance itself.

I would argue that this is an unverified and overblown statement. In fact, I don't even see why this would eventually lead itself to be true, unless you already consider bigotry and hatred to be the majority norm in a very pervasive sense. I could write more on the matter, but others have done some considerable study on the matter [1]. I would say that overall being tolerant of intolerance is a good thing, because these people naturally exclude themselves from social structures and circles of power where they are expected to maintain a leadership role towards those they are bigoted against. Further, by integrating intolerant people with those of us who are tolerant, there is more chance for them to learn why their hatred may be misplaced, and for us to learn where the boundaries of our own personal expression should be.

Thinking merely that we must "stamp out all hatred" is in fact a form of hatred in itself. You can't fight fire with fire here.

[1] http://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/09/23/how-marcuse-made-toda...

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by thesteamboat on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @03:58PM (#10658699)
> I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate* people like that.*

-Tom Lehrer, Intro to National Brotherhood Week

http://www.last.fm/music/Tom+Lehrer/That+Was+The+Year+That+W...

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by zaroth on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @03:21PM (#10658441)
I strongly suspect your definition of "harass" borders on what I would call academic discourse.

A university and a office are two very distinct environments. University is designed to create an environment for learning, growing, debating, being challenged in ones preconceived notions, and in some ways, it's also a crucible to help prepare young adults to enter society as productive members.

To apply the same standards of a workplace to an academic institution is ridiculous. In fact, in many ways we want workplaces to become more like university. It's another example of the friction and the push back against efforts to sterilize the workplace (trying to prevent it becoming the next "safe space").

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by noobermin on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @02:09PM (#10657911)
The poster you're replying to stresses again and again that this refers to public spaces. Even so, I'm not sure discrimination and harassment reach the same bar as discussing things like abortion in the abstract, for example.

Personally, I'm not sure I'd support anyone harassing another personally, although if speech isn't intimidating to a person, you can't say it's harassment, I think (IANAL).

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @02:13PM (#10657936)
Yep. But public spaces in context of the larger discussion at hand refers to universities as well.

Nobody's saying that we should turn main street of podunk, OH into a designated safe place (though, it says a lot about the culture in america that it is decidedly NOT a safe place to be if you're LGBTQ/POC/etc).

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by tristor on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @03:21PM (#10658442)
I'll reply to this, but no further.

Bigotry is a belief structure. Discrimination and harassment are actions, which may or may not be based in bigotry. I am in no way advocating that it is okay to discriminate against or harass people based on their identity. Speech can be an action, but it can also just be speech. It's not a simple line, but I think it's well defined in the law and well understood in society the difference between a statement of opinion, which may or may not be bigoted, and harassment.

Also, I'd like to point out that you're awfully focused on my statements around bigotry. Bigotry is a consequence of humanity, but it's also something that can be changed through education and discussion. The very reason why it's important to protect dissenting speech, is because it's a protection for society against bigotry. The movement that's currently happening around "safe spaces" is not merely a reaction to bigotry, it's also a reaction to dissenting opinions, ignoring the latter for the former because the former makes an easy target to argue against due to its inappropriateness and unpopularity does not change the facts of the matter.

I think part of our misunderstanding is that we disagree on what is entailed in a "discussion" and what is entailed in the term "safe space". To me, a discussion must have, among other things, diversity of thought or position. This implies that there will be dissent. In the usage of the term "safe space" that I've experienced, dissent was not allowed, in fact it was in some cases violently rejected. If there is no room for dissent, then what exists within is not a discussion, it's a group affirmation. You do not walk away from a group affirmation having learned anything, although it might make you feel better about yourself. A discussion provides the possibility of learning something, gaining awareness of other viewpoints, understanding of someone who is different than you, and perhaps the possibility of convincing someone else to change their viewpoint to share yours.

On a university campus in a shared space, I'd very much hope that any discussion that occurs about any topic, but especially topics of politics and social mores has room for dissent. For instance, I'd hope that my dissenting opinion regarding the existence or establishment of "safe spaces" would be welcome, if not applauded in a discussion about identity politics on a university campus. At the same time, if I were on said campus and I heard someone expressing a grossly bigoted opinion, such as something which is blatantly racist or sexist, I would confront them and provide them my dissenting viewpoint to their bigotry and hope that it were welcomed, if not embraced by the person who I was having the disagreement with. University life is supposed to be about having your viewpoints that you grew up with challenged, meeting new people who are different than you, finding out about the vast diversity of opinions and thought that exists in the world, and opening your mind to the possibilities that life holds. When we use social means to censure people and demand the cessation of dissent in the name of not causing offense, we trade away the possibility of teaching students about the vast possibilities of the world in favor of not rocking the boat.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by darkr on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:43PM (#10657714)
> There's a stark difference between what people who dislike the concept of "safe space" think a "safe space" is and what a "safe space" actually is.

The concept of safe spaces originally came out of the societal intersection of the LGBT, Riot grrrl and 3rd wave feminist movements of the late 80's/early 90's, where there was an existential threat of violence and intimidation from opponents/bigots/homophobes/just dicks.

As you say, vital for those movements and the people in them at the time.

Where the threat is not of violence and intimidation, but rather of hurt feelings due to encountering someone with different political or religious views from you, I think it's better for society as a whole for those feelings to get hurt; or preferably some spirited and hopefully non-intentionally inflammatory discourse to occur between people of opposing views so that we can better understand each other and progress as a society.

I'm not saying that safe spaces are not needed any more, just that they seem to be increasingly used where they are not necessary.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by aggieben on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:14PM (#10657519)
A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die.

FWIW, this concept of safe space isn't quite what I had in mind. I think, perhaps, what I failed to articulate is that the safe space concept that grinds my gears is the kind that is an expectation carried around by people who really do just want to shut other up. Professor said something they didn't like? "Waaah...this classroom isn't a safe space". Group-I'm-not-a-part-of says something they don't like? "Waaah...they're making my school a not-safe place".

I have no problem with the idea of a physically-located place with heightened expectations of civility.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:45PM (#10657732)
The professor is the one who brought up the safe place terminology in this instance. Not the student.

One thing to realize, also, is the context of love (as the topic of discussion in the classroom was in 1 Corinthians 13) in many evangelical circles.

Love, defined in many conservative christian circles, is devotion to the Church, the Husband and God, to the exclusion of all else. Even when it hurts. It's about staying in an abusive relationship because you need to submit to your husband's wishes, no matter what. It is not the selfless emotional connection of one person to another. It is the subjugation of the self.

This student may very well have felt victimized for how love was being talked about. But all we know about the classroom discussion was that the topic was 1 Corinthians 13. Not what was actually talked about with regard to that chapter. I've heard 1 Corinthians 13 be twisted in some very evil ways.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by brightball on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @02:11PM (#10657924)
"Love, defined in many conservative christian circles, is devotion to the Church, the Husband and God, to the exclusion of all else."

Please do not read any tone into what I'm saying here, because if you've gotten that message I honestly don't know how. "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another." - John 13:34

The verse you reference above is in the context of marriage and you hear it a lot at weddings, but the context of love within Christian community is always going to go straight to the way that Jesus defined it. There's no part of the Christian community that is going to try to override what Jesus said. "Just as I have loved you" means unconditionally. It doesn't mean as long as they agree with you, have the same color skin as you, speak the same language as you or fit some specific stencil.

I realize this is a bit off-kilter for Hacker News but sermons that talk about how we are all sinners in need of forgiveness are there specifically for two reasons.

1. No matter what you have done, God will forgive you. No matter what you have done, God loves you.

2. Because God will forgive the worst of us who truly asks for forgiveness, we have no right to deny forgiveness to anyone who truly asks for it either.

I've visited a lot of different churches throughout the southeast in my life and I've never once heard a minister say anything that implies anything other than the above.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @02:32PM (#10658059)
A lot of the very right-wing evangelical churches do.

I grew up in one. They use words that mean one thing to everyone else but mean (via subtext) another thing entirely to the in-group.

That's why I specifically called out that kind of church; I thought I was careful about that. I've been in many churches that are amazing, wonderful places. But I've been to other churches (usually PCA) that can be downright evil.

Edit: this wasn't about skin color, but more LGBTQ/nonbelievers. They're a very different breed of bigot than Those Who Wear Sheets.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by aggieben on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @02:11PM (#10657928)
The professor is the one who brought up the safe place terminology in this instance. Not the student.

I guess "safe space" (quoted as a term under discussion) isn't really the right term here - but the student is the one who raised the issue of "victimization", which to my mind is really more what we're talking about than actual safe spaces as you defined them. So on this point, that might actually be good feedback to that professor, because I think struggling with the terminology in this particular topic is common.

One thing to realize ...is the context of love ...in many evangelical circles

As a conservative evangelical myself, your explanation of the Christian concept of love is somewhat confusing and contradictory to me. But putting that aside, I still don't see how this student felt "victimized", unless now any negative feeling or emotion makes one a victim. Feeling guilty for failing to live up to a standard is a negative feeling, but I don't think it makes one a victim (and if it does, then I think the word victim becomes utterly void of meaning).

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @05:39PM (#10659437)
If he did feel victimized, how christian of the professor it was to just shut him down instead of trying to understand with compassion why he felt victimized...! :)

One wonders if it was all in the professor's head? Or if it even happened? Where's the proof! Flip the conversation, just because the professor is claiming to be accused of saying something that made the student feel victimized doesn't mean it happened!

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by aws_ls on Wednesday December 02, 2015 @01:08AM (#10661294)
And if the incident happened as described, then imagine the position of the student now. Perhaps s/he is thinking: 'Bugger broke my trust, by blogging publicly on what was an honest feedback. Never again I am giving any feedback to authority. Anonymous blogging is better'
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by mkrfox on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:33PM (#10657224)
That's what's so annoying. Everyone's having this big screaming conversation about something and using the words for something else, like they're working with some kind of bilingual dictionary. The entries for "safe space" and "trigger warning" got mixed up with a Sudoku puzzle, and everyone's pretending it makes perfect sense instead of looking for a better dictionary.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by mfisher87 on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:55PM (#10657801)
It's almost like I read a book by George Orwell about this kind of thing.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:04PM (#10657441)
Trigger warnings are important, in the context of a safe place.

I'm coming from the direction of a) being genderqueer and b) having survived sexual assault. Safe places have been remarkable in giving me a place to discuss my feelings about gender without ridicule or hate. Trigger warnings have been pivotal in me recovering from being molested as a pre-teen.

I'm actively scared of coming out in the developer community, because of its deep rooted misogyny. But here I am :)

(edit: I love that I just got down-voted for coming out to the community as both queer and victim of sexual assault! Thanks for proving me right, HN.)

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by doktrin on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @03:02PM (#10658307)
> I love that I just got down-voted for coming out to the community as both queer and victim of sexual assault!

Do you really think that's why you were downvoted?

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @03:07PM (#10658354)
I mean, it's either that or people who really really hate the idea of someone getting their mental health together with useful tools like safe spaces and trigger words :)
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by zaroth on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @03:25PM (#10658477)
I didn't downvote, but accusing the entire community of deep rooted misogyny might have something to do with it?
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @05:36PM (#10659413)
Are you denying that there is deep rooted (if surface-subtle) misogyny obvious in the comment thread on just about every post about women in tech / safe places / gamergate / just about anything that challenges the authority of cis-gendered white men?
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by zaroth on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @09:38PM (#10660536)
I am not commenting on it either way. You seemed to be asking about why you were down-voted, I was merely proposing what I thought to be the most likely reason. I hope you can see how it doesn't imply anything about my own personal belief?
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by mkrfox on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @05:51PM (#10659513)
I think we both know how hard it is for people to look critically at their surroundings before someone points problems out directly. You might get further with example threads, and maybe a few specific examples of the worst offenders (so no one will fuss too much about you calling them out).
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by dragonwriter on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @06:27PM (#10659704)
> Trigger warnings are important, in the context of a safe place.

I can see that, in the context in a "safe space" with a fairly specific purpose as to who (either by specific individuals are shared identity around common potential trauma source) it is safe for.

The reality of trauma and triggering is that there are a wide variety of sources of trauma, and that each is associated with a wide variety of both obviously related potential triggers and less obviously related ones, so I think a problem comes about when either safe spaces or trigger warnings become overly generic -- and, particularly, when contexts that are not specifically-sheltered "safe spaces" become the focus of efforts for demands for trigger warnings around any possible source of trauma (or, in a different way, when they became the focus of efforts to demand "trigger warnings" favoring particular sources of trauma, without any particularly strong reason that source of trauma is relevant and needing to be favored in the particular space.)

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by JungleGymSam on Wednesday December 02, 2015 @12:18AM (#10661146)
> (edit: I love that I just got down-voted for coming out to the community as both queer and victim of sexual assault! Thanks for proving me right, HN.)

Stop seeing the world through your victim-goggles. Just stop.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by mkrfox on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:15PM (#10657522)
I always appreciate warnings that let me be ready to read or hear about the few things that still bug me (nothing as rough as your b). Way more effective than the "tough love" so many advocate.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by angersock on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:39PM (#10657256)
I don't think the disdain for these safe spaces is necessarily from sexism and hatred (though HN has issues with those).

The basic "problem" from developer culture is that it is heavily rooted in systems logic, and frankly safe spaces as proposed and as advertised and as popularly understood are illogical.

Very simply, using your definition, the safe space both proclaims to allow discussion and then by its very definition excludes one side of that same discussion.

If the claim was "Hey, look, we just need a separate place where we don't fear bullying, violence, and microaggressions" that would be understandable and not a problem.

However, the claim is invariably appended with "And we can have useful discussions here, and no other place can have useful discussions, and we accept everyone--except these other people that we decide have badthink" and once that amendment is made it triggers the developer bullshit alarm.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by davegauer on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:13PM (#10657512)
I'm surprised that you've been downvoted for this. You're absolutely correct - without a proper and internally logical definition (beyond the literal dictionary meaning of the words themselves), a term like "safe space" is useless for discussion.

    newspace = makeSafe(space);
Is it wrong to ask what the value of newspace is?

How would we test that this function is performing correctly?

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by alexqgb on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:09PM (#10657485)
You've mistaken discussion in general—which encompasses a fairly broad range of exchanges—with a particularly narrow subset that is characterized by clearly defined and opposing positions, along with acceptance of adversarial engagement from "both sides" of the issue.

There's a time and a place for that, to be sure, but there are many more cases in which the forceful imposition of a binary outlook has effects that are socially inhibiting, making it a serious impediment to free discussion and open development of ideas.

If a person cannot (or will not) recognize when taking a narrow and combative approach just makes them an asshole, then the "logical" response is to keep them far enough away to prevent their noxious manner from derailing otherwise productive exchanges.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by angersock on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @02:04PM (#10657873)
I would suggest that the most people would have a decent chance of having non-combative discussion; however, the construction of the spaces tends to throw out those folks along with the more toxic and dedicated trolls and harassers.

Moreover, even attempts at polite discussion are often dismissed as sealioning or whatnot--and thus, by being hypersensitive and assuming a victim stance, truly productive and civil discourse is prevented.

Additionally, these spaces do not facilitate a "productive" exchange: we can wager that few really new ideas are being exchanged. Politely, it's a chance to reaffirm values and provide a sense of belonging and comfort. Impolitely, it's a circlejerk.

If people need a place to find comfort, that's great! To claim anything other than that, especially that it somehow is some setting for honest and fair discourse, is a misrepresentation.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by zaroth on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @03:33PM (#10658524)
I think this was very well said (better than my reply) and I'm happy for it to be my first use of the "vouch" feature.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by zaroth on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @03:09PM (#10658370)
I really don't understand what you're saying in the first two paragraphs. What's interesting is I don't think the goal of these "safe spaces" is at all to foster "free discussion" or "open development of ideas". What you see people rallying against is that the SJWs are shutting down any free discussion through these tactics.

For example, these "safe spaces" apparently are to protect against "micro-aggressions" (a term I only recently learned) which if I understand correctly means to "take offense where none was given" aka to put words into someone's mouth? So now it's not even what someone is saying but how someone in the audience might feel, because of their own personal history, indirectly because a word the speaker used. And this is the speaker's responsibility now that someone in the audience was made to feel this way because they were confronted with a disagreeing opinion?

I think this is where the accusations of mollycoddling come in. It sounds like these kids aren't ready for serious academic discourse. They're stuck in a world where there is only one "right" and they paint caractures of their racist and bigoted antagonists to support their view.

What I find noxious is warfangle's claim that we must all be sexist and bigots to raise questions around academic freedom and censorship in colleges / universities... I think this is a typical parlor trick to try to shut down productive discussion. Frankly I would have liked to see a rebuke from dang in response. Why is it ok to attack a group saying a viewpoint is "disgustingly indicative of the inherent sexism and flat-out hatred that worms its way through developer culture." All the same, I'll let warfangle speak for themself and I don't expect HN to be free from dissenting opinions or even vitriol. Because in an attempt to shut down a "narrow and combative approach" it's impossible not to have a chilling effect on the overall discussion. In your safe spaces you might be spared from some of the bad, but it comes at a significant cost to others around you who aren't triggered and are capable of having adult conversations on difficult topics.

Frankly I've been waiting for an article like this to hit the front page because I am very interested in seeing the varying perspectives and actually having a chance at productive conversation on HN, which you won't find in the comments anywhere else that's for sure!

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @05:40PM (#10659443)
You've never been to a safe place have you? :)
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by zaroth on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @09:45PM (#10660565)
My only personal experience with "safe places" is in "safe place imagery" which is a very cool visualization technique used for relaxation, meditation, and even in therapy along with amazing tricks like EMDR for helping to manage or eliminate triggers and "zero out" extremely stressful memories.

Quite as it should be, the best "safe place" is the one we create for ourselves in our mind. I never imagined students would demand a real-world physical equivalent that somehow everyone else in the room is supposed to comply with.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by ender89 on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @06:19PM (#10659660)
Hey, this is a safe space for anti-safe-spacers and you're making us feel distinctly unsafe by being purposefully hurtful; stating that all anti-safe-spacers are hateful sexist racists who don't notice when someone leaves a comparison dangling (There's a stark difference between "this isn't a place for hurtful things" and what?). You should know that anti-safe-spacers are a diverse group of individuals from all walks of life, genders, races, and wolf/human hybrids. We're only intolerant of people who are intolerant of other people's cultures. And the Dutch.

Also, I hope you realize how silly you sound. "Safe Spaces" are supposed to be free from antagonizing rhetoric, violence, and judgement. Its not supposed to be safe from the emotional pain you feel when someone tells you that you might be wrong for the first time in your life, or that a college sorority girl dressing up as Mulan isn't culturally insensitive (especially in today's world where the lines that traditionally divide us are being constantly eroded by near instant communication and a sub 24 hour flight to anywhere on the globe), or that god forbid that racism is not exclusive to white people of Anglo-Saxon decent. College specifically is about challenging world views and teaching students first and fore most how to become citizens of the world. Its not for "safe spaces" where students are tucked into comfortable rooms with rounded corners and foam flooring to make sure they never hurt themselves.

Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by ForHackernews on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @02:45PM (#10658179)
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @05:43PM (#10659455)
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by chrisdbaldwin on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:31PM (#10657199)
That's a long way of saying "shut up."
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by warfangle on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:09PM (#10657483)
That's a long way of saying "you don't matter."
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by hiddencost on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @12:39PM (#10657255)
Amen.
Re:This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University by nmrm2 on Tuesday December 01, 2015 @01:14PM (#10657520)
TL;DR: If a student can't be openly and actively gay at your university, then you're running an indoctrination camp, not a "place to learn".

> There's a stark difference between a free and voluntary association of like-minded people and a so-called "safe space"

No, there defintionally is not... perhaps there seems to be a confusion over definitions.

The fact that people want to expand the rules governing a particular safe space into a large sphere doesn't change the definition of a safe space.

You can take offense with someone wanting to make a classroom into a safe space, but I really don't get why any non-authoritarian person would insist on not allowing safe spaces at all.

Also, I'd be surprised if OKWU faculty/students/alumni don't try doing the exact same thing (expanding the boundaries of their safe space) by voting for fundamentalist christian politicians who enforce christian morality on women who use birth control, homosexuals, people who consume alcohol, etc.

> ...which uses a pretext of "victimization" to capriciously thought control others who simply committed the offense of disagreeing or criticizing.

What, like kicking someone out of a university when they realize half way through a difficult-to-transfer course of study that they're gay? Or that they enjoy square dancing?

The harm that fundie universities like OKWU have done to students who disagree ever so slightly with their idiotic version of religion is demonstrable and significant. Your argument that students somehow "should have known better" is, IMO, fundamentally misinformed.

> And this is evidence of what, exactly?

That OKWU is a safe space and that safe spaces have always existed, but they usually function to shelter people who are aligned with popular opinion / cultural norms. You know, like social norms (e.g., not employing publicly out gay people, looking the other way when transvestites are assaulted, etc.) protecting homophobes from having to knowingly interact with the icky gay people.

OKWU is a safe space for people who don't want to have to interact with anyone who does not subscribe to their particular brand of nutty American puritan christianity. It's a place where people can be openly homophobic and openly judge other people's sexual morality without being socially ostracized like they would be in the real world.

Just in case my opinion isn't clear by now: Everett Piper is a massive hypocrite who runs a religious commune with strict codes of conduct while also appealing to liberal values. He doesn't actually give a shit about free speech or dissenting opinions. It's impossible to take someone seriously when they claim universities aren't safe spaces while also expelling people for disagreeing with a very particular and very whacky form of christianity.