That said, the term "safe space" is something I've never personally encountered being used in the context you present it in. When a group of like-minded people come together in a private space, they don't then declare "This place is a safe space for $x people". It's obvious that everyone present is of like-mind, and those who are there for purposes other than discussion of the topic at hand can be expelled through social means as a consensus action of the group without any need for authority involvement.

Meanwhile, I often hear the term "safe space" used by people when they want to take over a shared space to insulate themselves from people who might disagree with them or maybe even be bigots towards them, while in public. I am not in any way arguing that bigotry is socially acceptable, but it is protected speech, and while it is perfectly appropriate to tell people that their bigotry is offensive, inappropriate, and unwelcome, it's not appropriate to ask that an authority come in and forcibly establish a zone in a shared space where-in some speech is okay and other speech is not.

My opinion, which I think is largely in-line with the person you replied to, is not one born out of hatred or bigotry, it's born out of concern about the death of dissent. It's a concern that our culture is shifting to one where everyone lives in an echo chamber and is intolerant of any ideas not of their own making. It is perfectly acceptable as a society to be intolerant of intolerance, and that includes both intolerance based in bigotry as well as intolerance based in delusion. This is not an argument in favor of people "just taking it" when others behave in inappropriate ways towards them, but it is a plea for reason around dissent. Respectful disagreement is not offensive or inappropriate, even though some people may use disrespectful terms in their dissent which themselves are offensive or inappropriate, that does not mean that all people who disagree are inherently offensive. It is not oppression to disagree with someone, it is oppression to prevent dissenting opinions.

Given that so much of the influence and respect people in the public eye have these days is based on the appearance that they're socially/politically appropriate, it's very clear how claims of victimhood can be used to intimidate. In some cases, I don't have much sympathy for those who have come under fire since they are in a position to clearly state their position and walk away relatively unscathed, but some people unfortunately are not in that situation. Take for instance, the two Yale professors who clearly argued for school administrators to allow students to define their own standards and for students to have a discussion, instead were reviled unfairly by some students who instead want administrators to use their authority to impose speech controls. Unfortunately, those Yale professors have less influence with which to save themselves than the administrators who more often come under fire.

Perhaps the most confusing thing to me about this whole situation is that in most cases the people calling for "safe spaces" are people who are part of marginalized groups or are saying that they act on behalf of marginalized groups. The social concepts surrounding free association, free speech, and dissent are there to protect marginalized groups. It allows them to exist, gather, and discuss their ideas, thoughts, experiences, and feelings and to publicly disagree with people who are in the majority groups and be protected from the oppression of being silenced by authority while doing so. It seems strange to me that the people claiming to be proponents of marginalized groups would want to take away these protections from anyone.

I could write more, but I don't think it would lend anything else to the point I'm trying to make. If anyone reading this is unable to understand the difference between free association of like-minded people in private spaces vs trying to enforce speech controls on everyone, including those who may not be like-minded, in a shared space, and why the latter might be concerning to many for reasons that do not originate from any personal hatred or bigotry, I will attempt to clarify further. Otherwise, I hope the above is well-stated enough to put forward that position.

thank you for the articulate reply.

How do you feel about your HR department and their anti-discrimination and harassment policies? :)

You get more protections from harassment in the workplace than students get on campus.

Tolerance of intolerance (e.g., hate speech) leads inevitability to the extinction of tolerance itself. Discussions on why intolerance exists and what can be done to combat it are precisely why safe spaces exist. And yes, I believe university campuses should be exclusively safe places. Hate speech itself has no place in an institute of education - just as it has no place in the workplace. Discussions about hate speech, on the other hand, absolutely do.

I would argue that this is an unverified and overblown statement. In fact, I don't even see why this would eventually lead itself to be true, unless you already consider bigotry and hatred to be the majority norm in a very pervasive sense. I could write more on the matter, but others have done some considerable study on the matter [1]. I would say that overall being tolerant of intolerance is a good thing, because these people naturally exclude themselves from social structures and circles of power where they are expected to maintain a leadership role towards those they are bigoted against. Further, by integrating intolerant people with those of us who are tolerant, there is more chance for them to learn why their hatred may be misplaced, and for us to learn where the boundaries of our own personal expression should be.

Thinking merely that we must "stamp out all hatred" is in fact a form of hatred in itself. You can't fight fire with fire here.

[1] http://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/09/23/how-marcuse-made-toda...

-Tom Lehrer, Intro to National Brotherhood Week

http://www.last.fm/music/Tom+Lehrer/That+Was+The+Year+That+W...

A university and a office are two very distinct environments. University is designed to create an environment for learning, growing, debating, being challenged in ones preconceived notions, and in some ways, it's also a crucible to help prepare young adults to enter society as productive members.

To apply the same standards of a workplace to an academic institution is ridiculous. In fact, in many ways we want workplaces to become more like university. It's another example of the friction and the push back against efforts to sterilize the workplace (trying to prevent it becoming the next "safe space").

Personally, I'm not sure I'd support anyone harassing another personally, although if speech isn't intimidating to a person, you can't say it's harassment, I think (IANAL).

Nobody's saying that we should turn main street of podunk, OH into a designated safe place (though, it says a lot about the culture in america that it is decidedly NOT a safe place to be if you're LGBTQ/POC/etc).

Bigotry is a belief structure. Discrimination and harassment are actions, which may or may not be based in bigotry. I am in no way advocating that it is okay to discriminate against or harass people based on their identity. Speech can be an action, but it can also just be speech. It's not a simple line, but I think it's well defined in the law and well understood in society the difference between a statement of opinion, which may or may not be bigoted, and harassment.

Also, I'd like to point out that you're awfully focused on my statements around bigotry. Bigotry is a consequence of humanity, but it's also something that can be changed through education and discussion. The very reason why it's important to protect dissenting speech, is because it's a protection for society against bigotry. The movement that's currently happening around "safe spaces" is not merely a reaction to bigotry, it's also a reaction to dissenting opinions, ignoring the latter for the former because the former makes an easy target to argue against due to its inappropriateness and unpopularity does not change the facts of the matter.

I think part of our misunderstanding is that we disagree on what is entailed in a "discussion" and what is entailed in the term "safe space". To me, a discussion must have, among other things, diversity of thought or position. This implies that there will be dissent. In the usage of the term "safe space" that I've experienced, dissent was not allowed, in fact it was in some cases violently rejected. If there is no room for dissent, then what exists within is not a discussion, it's a group affirmation. You do not walk away from a group affirmation having learned anything, although it might make you feel better about yourself. A discussion provides the possibility of learning something, gaining awareness of other viewpoints, understanding of someone who is different than you, and perhaps the possibility of convincing someone else to change their viewpoint to share yours.

On a university campus in a shared space, I'd very much hope that any discussion that occurs about any topic, but especially topics of politics and social mores has room for dissent. For instance, I'd hope that my dissenting opinion regarding the existence or establishment of "safe spaces" would be welcome, if not applauded in a discussion about identity politics on a university campus. At the same time, if I were on said campus and I heard someone expressing a grossly bigoted opinion, such as something which is blatantly racist or sexist, I would confront them and provide them my dissenting viewpoint to their bigotry and hope that it were welcomed, if not embraced by the person who I was having the disagreement with. University life is supposed to be about having your viewpoints that you grew up with challenged, meeting new people who are different than you, finding out about the vast diversity of opinions and thought that exists in the world, and opening your mind to the possibilities that life holds. When we use social means to censure people and demand the cessation of dissent in the name of not causing offense, we trade away the possibility of teaching students about the vast possibilities of the world in favor of not rocking the boat.

The concept of safe spaces originally came out of the societal intersection of the LGBT, Riot grrrl and 3rd wave feminist movements of the late 80's/early 90's, where there was an existential threat of violence and intimidation from opponents/bigots/homophobes/just dicks.

As you say, vital for those movements and the people in them at the time.

Where the threat is not of violence and intimidation, but rather of hurt feelings due to encountering someone with different political or religious views from you, I think it's better for society as a whole for those feelings to get hurt; or preferably some spirited and hopefully non-intentionally inflammatory discourse to occur between people of opposing views so that we can better understand each other and progress as a society.

I'm not saying that safe spaces are not needed any more, just that they seem to be increasingly used where they are not necessary.

FWIW, this concept of safe space isn't quite what I had in mind. I think, perhaps, what I failed to articulate is that the safe space concept that grinds my gears is the kind that is an expectation carried around by people who really do just want to shut other up. Professor said something they didn't like? "Waaah...this classroom isn't a safe space". Group-I'm-not-a-part-of says something they don't like? "Waaah...they're making my school a not-safe place".

I have no problem with the idea of a physically-located place with heightened expectations of civility.

One thing to realize, also, is the context of love (as the topic of discussion in the classroom was in 1 Corinthians 13) in many evangelical circles.

Love, defined in many conservative christian circles, is devotion to the Church, the Husband and God, to the exclusion of all else. Even when it hurts. It's about staying in an abusive relationship because you need to submit to your husband's wishes, no matter what. It is not the selfless emotional connection of one person to another. It is the subjugation of the self.

This student may very well have felt victimized for how love was being talked about. But all we know about the classroom discussion was that the topic was 1 Corinthians 13. Not what was actually talked about with regard to that chapter. I've heard 1 Corinthians 13 be twisted in some very evil ways.

Please do not read any tone into what I'm saying here, because if you've gotten that message I honestly don't know how. "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another." - John 13:34

The verse you reference above is in the context of marriage and you hear it a lot at weddings, but the context of love within Christian community is always going to go straight to the way that Jesus defined it. There's no part of the Christian community that is going to try to override what Jesus said. "Just as I have loved you" means unconditionally. It doesn't mean as long as they agree with you, have the same color skin as you, speak the same language as you or fit some specific stencil.

I realize this is a bit off-kilter for Hacker News but sermons that talk about how we are all sinners in need of forgiveness are there specifically for two reasons.

1. No matter what you have done, God will forgive you. No matter what you have done, God loves you.

2. Because God will forgive the worst of us who truly asks for forgiveness, we have no right to deny forgiveness to anyone who truly asks for it either.

I've visited a lot of different churches throughout the southeast in my life and I've never once heard a minister say anything that implies anything other than the above.

I grew up in one. They use words that mean one thing to everyone else but mean (via subtext) another thing entirely to the in-group.

That's why I specifically called out that kind of church; I thought I was careful about that. I've been in many churches that are amazing, wonderful places. But I've been to other churches (usually PCA) that can be downright evil.

Edit: this wasn't about skin color, but more LGBTQ/nonbelievers. They're a very different breed of bigot than Those Who Wear Sheets.

I guess "safe space" (quoted as a term under discussion) isn't really the right term here - but the student is the one who raised the issue of "victimization", which to my mind is really more what we're talking about than actual safe spaces as you defined them. So on this point, that might actually be good feedback to that professor, because I think struggling with the terminology in this particular topic is common.

One thing to realize ...is the context of love ...in many evangelical circles

As a conservative evangelical myself, your explanation of the Christian concept of love is somewhat confusing and contradictory to me. But putting that aside, I still don't see how this student felt "victimized", unless now any negative feeling or emotion makes one a victim. Feeling guilty for failing to live up to a standard is a negative feeling, but I don't think it makes one a victim (and if it does, then I think the word victim becomes utterly void of meaning).

One wonders if it was all in the professor's head? Or if it even happened? Where's the proof! Flip the conversation, just because the professor is claiming to be accused of saying something that made the student feel victimized doesn't mean it happened!

I'm coming from the direction of a) being genderqueer and b) having survived sexual assault. Safe places have been remarkable in giving me a place to discuss my feelings about gender without ridicule or hate. Trigger warnings have been pivotal in me recovering from being molested as a pre-teen.

I'm actively scared of coming out in the developer community, because of its deep rooted misogyny. But here I am :)

(edit: I love that I just got down-voted for coming out to the community as both queer and victim of sexual assault! Thanks for proving me right, HN.)

Do you really think that's why you were downvoted?

I can see that, in the context in a "safe space" with a fairly specific purpose as to who (either by specific individuals are shared identity around common potential trauma source) it is safe for.

The reality of trauma and triggering is that there are a wide variety of sources of trauma, and that each is associated with a wide variety of both obviously related potential triggers and less obviously related ones, so I think a problem comes about when either safe spaces or trigger warnings become overly generic -- and, particularly, when contexts that are not specifically-sheltered "safe spaces" become the focus of efforts for demands for trigger warnings around any possible source of trauma (or, in a different way, when they became the focus of efforts to demand "trigger warnings" favoring particular sources of trauma, without any particularly strong reason that source of trauma is relevant and needing to be favored in the particular space.)

Stop seeing the world through your victim-goggles. Just stop.

The basic "problem" from developer culture is that it is heavily rooted in systems logic, and frankly safe spaces as proposed and as advertised and as popularly understood are illogical.

Very simply, using your definition, the safe space both proclaims to allow discussion and then by its very definition excludes one side of that same discussion.

If the claim was "Hey, look, we just need a separate place where we don't fear bullying, violence, and microaggressions" that would be understandable and not a problem.

However, the claim is invariably appended with "And we can have useful discussions here, and no other place can have useful discussions, and we accept everyone--except these other people that we decide have badthink" and once that amendment is made it triggers the developer bullshit alarm.

    newspace = makeSafe(space);

How would we test that this function is performing correctly?

There's a time and a place for that, to be sure, but there are many more cases in which the forceful imposition of a binary outlook has effects that are socially inhibiting, making it a serious impediment to free discussion and open development of ideas.

If a person cannot (or will not) recognize when taking a narrow and combative approach just makes them an asshole, then the "logical" response is to keep them far enough away to prevent their noxious manner from derailing otherwise productive exchanges.

Moreover, even attempts at polite discussion are often dismissed as sealioning or whatnot--and thus, by being hypersensitive and assuming a victim stance, truly productive and civil discourse is prevented.

Additionally, these spaces do not facilitate a "productive" exchange: we can wager that few really new ideas are being exchanged. Politely, it's a chance to reaffirm values and provide a sense of belonging and comfort. Impolitely, it's a circlejerk.

If people need a place to find comfort, that's great! To claim anything other than that, especially that it somehow is some setting for honest and fair discourse, is a misrepresentation.

For example, these "safe spaces" apparently are to protect against "micro-aggressions" (a term I only recently learned) which if I understand correctly means to "take offense where none was given" aka to put words into someone's mouth? So now it's not even what someone is saying but how someone in the audience might feel, because of their own personal history, indirectly because a word the speaker used. And this is the speaker's responsibility now that someone in the audience was made to feel this way because they were confronted with a disagreeing opinion?

I think this is where the accusations of mollycoddling come in. It sounds like these kids aren't ready for serious academic discourse. They're stuck in a world where there is only one "right" and they paint caractures of their racist and bigoted antagonists to support their view.

What I find noxious is warfangle's claim that we must all be sexist and bigots to raise questions around academic freedom and censorship in colleges / universities... I think this is a typical parlor trick to try to shut down productive discussion. Frankly I would have liked to see a rebuke from dang in response. Why is it ok to attack a group saying a viewpoint is "disgustingly indicative of the inherent sexism and flat-out hatred that worms its way through developer culture." All the same, I'll let warfangle speak for themself and I don't expect HN to be free from dissenting opinions or even vitriol. Because in an attempt to shut down a "narrow and combative approach" it's impossible not to have a chilling effect on the overall discussion. In your safe spaces you might be spared from some of the bad, but it comes at a significant cost to others around you who aren't triggered and are capable of having adult conversations on difficult topics.

Frankly I've been waiting for an article like this to hit the front page because I am very interested in seeing the varying perspectives and actually having a chance at productive conversation on HN, which you won't find in the comments anywhere else that's for sure!

Quite as it should be, the best "safe place" is the one we create for ourselves in our mind. I never imagined students would demand a real-world physical equivalent that somehow everyone else in the room is supposed to comply with.

Also, I hope you realize how silly you sound. "Safe Spaces" are supposed to be free from antagonizing rhetoric, violence, and judgement. Its not supposed to be safe from the emotional pain you feel when someone tells you that you might be wrong for the first time in your life, or that a college sorority girl dressing up as Mulan isn't culturally insensitive (especially in today's world where the lines that traditionally divide us are being constantly eroded by near instant communication and a sub 24 hour flight to anywhere on the globe), or that god forbid that racism is not exclusive to white people of Anglo-Saxon decent. College specifically is about challenging world views and teaching students first and fore most how to become citizens of the world. Its not for "safe spaces" where students are tucked into comfortable rooms with rounded corners and foam flooring to make sure they never hurt themselves.

Relevant reading:

https://popehat.com/2015/11/09/safe-spaces-as-shield-safe-sp...

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/how-camp...

http://www.gayalliance.org/programs/education-safezone/safez...