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Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by Scarblac on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @10:11AM (#10621112)
I'm 40 and way poorer than my babyboomer parents. My savings got wiped out in a housing market crash in 2008, they have made over half a million euro in their lives just from their houses becoming worth more over time.

They've also both had work most of their adult life, and their pensions funds have always done well on the stock market, whereas my wife has been without a job since the financial crisis hit and government in the Netherlands went in austerity mode.

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by logfromblammo on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @11:27AM (#10621694)
Similar story here. I cashed out a lot of stocks to make a down payment on a house. Then I had to move to a different city to find work, and lost everything I ever put into the house. I timed the market just right to lose everything, because my other options were to lose more than that.

I have had more employers in 15 years of work than both of my parents accumulated over a combined total of nearly 80 years. I have never, ever been promoted within the same company, but I have been summarily tossed to the curb for no individually-attributable reason--along with several of my office-mates--a total of four times.

I have a lot of envy for what the Baby Boomer generation already got, and in combination with the condescending attitude they have (in aggregate) towards the younger generations, it fuels a lot of resentment.

Their formula of education plus hard work equals success has not been even remotely accurate for me. Education plus hard work equals screw you, buddy, because I already got mine. Enjoy your layoffs and unaffordable housing and tuition increases well in excess of inflation and slashed employer-granted benefits and mountains of political debt, because your parents have decided to sell their house at 20x what they paid for it, buy a plush RV, and split their well-funded retirement between any convenient US state and Snowbirdland, Mexico.

And what really kills me is that I have never seen anyone from my parents' generation working particularly hard. Maybe they did all that before I was born, and just coasted along afterward? Maybe I don't really know what hard work looks like?

Well, anyway, thanks for all the inter-generational tension, Boomers. We'll air it out by having Thanksgiving dinner at your house again this year, because none of your kids can afford homes big enough to hold everyone.

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by Robin_Message on Wednesday November 25, 2015 @08:15AM (#10626989)
Genuine question: why not rent out the house whilst you were in the other city? That would have probably covered the mortgage and got you out of the dip until you could either move back, or the market had picked up again and you could sell without loss.
Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by cpursley on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @11:02PM (#10625265)
> We'll air it out by having Thanksgiving dinner at your house again this year, because none of your kids can afford homes big enough to hold everyone.

That and we can't afford to have our own kids...

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by laotzu on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @10:25AM (#10621206)
May I ask what your savings were in that caused them to be be wiped out in 2008? I would have to guess retirement funds invested in mutual funds which were invested in the housing bubble?
Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by Scarblac on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @10:31AM (#10621254)
We bought a house for 300k, about 60k of it our savings and 240k mortgage. In the next two years, the value of the house went down by 60k.

To be honest that wasn't _all_ our savings, and they were already spent on the house of course, but it was a financial loss equal to most of our original savings.

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by esteth on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @10:53AM (#10621400)
If the house was your primary residence, and not an investment instrument, you didn't really "lose" anything - other property is now also cheaper, and you always need somewhere to live.

Sure, you're paying more than you would have if you waited, but you were happy to pay XXXXUSD per month to have somewhere to live, and your relative mobility has actually increased if we assume that the housing market fell by a flat percentage.

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by esaym on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @11:12AM (#10621540)
I think the problem is when you finally do need to move, and you owe 200k still but will only be able sell the house for 150k. You'll still be making mortgage payments on a house you won't even have then.
Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by at-fates-hands on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @12:02PM (#10621947)
Real estate markets are a fickle beast.

After the 2008 crash, I was planning on moving, but abruptly changed my plans when I lost close to a 80K on the value of my home.

Fast forward 6 years and suddenly the market was showing signs of rebounding. I had always been in contact with my real estate agent, but I was considering a large scale remodel and staying put where I was. My agent offered to start looking for something that I might like.

A year later the process went shockingly fast. I was assuming the house would sit for a while since the market was still pretty soft. I cleaned and de-cluttered my house and it went on the market. Within hours I had two listings for the next day - which ballooned to four the morning of. When I got back, I had two offers. The house was on the market less than two days.

I credit the ability to sell my house and make a few grand on it to my agent. It was priced and marketed really well by him and his company. This is the second house he's sold for me. The other house was on the market at the height of the housing boom and sold in less than a week.

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by jellicle on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @11:35AM (#10621761)
Just because the loss hasn't been realized yet doesn't mean it isn't real. Among other things, prior commenter can't move to a different house because s/he no longer has a downpayment and won't be able to refinance to take advantage of lower rates. An increase in housing values is real, and so is a decrease, and it's real even before those losses/gains have been realized by selling (for instance, a HELOC can get the gains out before selling).
Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by Scarblac on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @01:51PM (#10622668)
In particular my wife has no job now and mortgage lending rules are much stricter now. So although we can make the payments on our current 240k mortgage each month on my income, the maximum mortgage we could get now is something like 180k.
Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by Scarblac on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @11:11AM (#10621530)
Assuming that I will always move on to another own house, and not a rented one.
Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by logfromblammo on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @11:48AM (#10621856)
I'm never buying again. If they want me to sink 30 years of my life into monthly payments, I'm going to need a job that will last for at least 30 years of steady paychecks.

And I don't believe those actually exist any more.

Also, I no longer trust the justice system to protect my rights as a property owner. Having been primed by software-based DRM to not want to buy something unless I can truly own it, I find that land property in the US is often heavily encumbered with covenants, regulations, local ordinances, mortgage terms, and recurring taxes, to the point where it feels like paying rent and signing a lease feels less restrictive.

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by Scarblac on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @01:59PM (#10622743)
> I'm never buying again. If they want me to sink 30 years of my life into monthly payments, I'm going to need a job that will last for at least 30 years of steady paychecks.

I don't get this. If you rent instead, you'll just be sinking monthly payments into that (maybe more, maybe less than with buying).

And there's no need for a job that lasts 30 years, you just need to keep the ability to make the payment every month. But that is also true when renting.

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by logfromblammo on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @02:42PM (#10623072)
You don't understand, because you have probably just done the math on paper, rather than lived it.

Anecdotally, I have realized more value per dollar spent on rented homes than on purchased homes. If I had never purchased a home in the past, renting instead, I believe without a shred of doubt that I would have a greater net worth today.

I cannot make a rational case for home purchase now, because I cannot guarantee so many years of steady paychecks within an acceptable commuting radius of any home I could buy. Look back 30 years before now, to 1985. How many jobs existed then in the U.S. that no longer exist now? Do you think you can predict what the job market will look like in 2045?

If your job was to make buggy whips, would you feel safe making a 30-year financial commitment in 1890? Perhaps, but the Ford Model T came in 1908. Technology develops faster now. I get the impression that jobs that don't even exist this year may become obsolete before 30 years elapse, and yet employers still routinely hire based on specific experience rather than aptitude or trainability.

Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that I will never take on debt to buy a home again, and I don't expect to ever be able to afford to buy anything without doing so.

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @04:34PM (#10623723)
It's a bit more complicated than what you're presenting. Let's say I'm a buggy whip maker in 1890. I buy a house. 1908 comes, and I'm out of a job. I can't afford the house. But if I'm living in a town that wasn't too dependent on the buggy whip factory, then there are probably people who are looking to buy houses, so I'm still able to get out of the house without losing my shirt.

The problem comes when the town's economy crashed (because the buggy whip factory was the big business), or the nation's economy crashes (recession/depression/downturn/whatever), and I have to sell my house. Then I can really get burned.

And the next problem: When I buy a house, I can't be sure what the economic environment will be when I need to sell it.

I would say that, over the long haul, if you live in a town where there's enough variety of employment that you can probably continue to find work even if you lose your current job, most of the time owning your own house is a net win. (Be sure to hear all the caveats in that sentence!)

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by turar on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @10:05PM (#10625130)
It's tough to go against the US government who's subsidizing homeowners at renters' expense though. 30-year fixed mortgages are unheard of elsewhere in the world, that's why they all have to be underwritten by Fannie/Freddie in the ultimate end. And with where the interests rate are now, it's tough to resist locking that in for 30 years. And of course, mortgage interest tax deductions on top of that.
Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by Scarblac on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @04:23PM (#10623683)
Fair enough. I'm lucky to live in a small country.
Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @11:54AM (#10621895)
Takes all kinds. I bought my place after 20 years of payments, on a dozen different jobs. Had savings, so 'between jobs' didn't impact mortgage payments. And I'm out in the county, where if they have zoning rules, there sure as heck aren't any inspectors. So I do as I please. Feels pretty unencumbered to me!
Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by logfromblammo on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @02:06PM (#10622786)
I have been burnt twice on home ownership, and didn't enjoy the pain. Other people will have different experiences.

I do know for certain that I will never sign another mortgage for as long as I live. Those lenders can go FOADIAF.

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by cpursley on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @10:55PM (#10625239)
Exactly, we're all naturally short housing.

https://thezikomoletter.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/you-are-nat...

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by beachstartup on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @10:31AM (#10621261)
simply owning a recently-purchased house in an affected real estate market could have caused that. if you couldn't cover mortgage due to job loss or a rate hike, you were forced out and lost the money. doubly so if you were also invested in financial markets. a lot of people lost a lot of money.

meanwhile, parents' mortgage is from the 1980s or 1990s and easily affordable in today's money, even if their nominal market value takes a slump, the mortgage is easily covered and the rebound in values 3-4 years later will put you far ahead again. if you were smart enough to hold steady or even double-down when the financial markets were down, well then you're even richer today.

it was essentially a transfer of wealth from one generation to well-positioned members of the previous generation, and of course bankers/traders. but it wasn't a conspiracy... some people are just better positioned for and better able to see a massive market shift like that.

i personally lost some (not that much) money during that time, and my parents gained money. ultimately their money is my money so i'm fortunate in that regard, but the same exact thing happened to me. i did everything 'right', including saving and investing, and still got somewhat shafted personally due to a combination of extrinsic market forces and personal decisions.

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by adventured on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @10:30AM (#10621253)
Isn't the Netherlands government spending higher as a portion of GDP today than it was ten years ago?

Is it primarily an issue of where they're spending the money?

Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by Scarblac on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @10:33AM (#10621279)
Cost of healthcare is going up all the time, social security as well. My wife was a municipal civil servant and they have to make cuts.
Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by adventured on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @10:40AM (#10621314)
How does the healthcare system work in the Netherlands? I'm entirely unfamiliar with it. Is it more similar to Germany / Switzerland, or closer to the UK model?
Re:Young 'to be poorer than parents at every stage of life' by stuxnet79 on Tuesday November 24, 2015 @12:59PM (#10622308)
Looks to me from a simple Wikipedia search that the Netherlands follows the Bismarck Model (Germany, Switzerland) rather than the Beveridge Model. UK's NHS is one of a kind. Not a lot of countries have or can afford to have the same type of healthcare system as UK.