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Re:The War ISIS Wants by Amezarak on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @07:30AM (#10580615)
> Beyond the complete lack of humanity in the outlook that we are like barrels of brent, it's simply wrong.

Indeed. And there seems, to me, to be something nihilistic in the idea that Europeans should simply let immigrants replace them. Maybe instead, European nations should look into instituting domestic policies that encourage the population to maintain a healthy replacement rate.

The article appears to be implying that Western nations should not make war against Daesh because "that's what they want." Well, the status quo of surveillance, arrests, and half-hearted airstrikes isn't stopping them. There seems something profoundly suciidally nihilistic in the idea that Europe should simply do nothing different and simply be more and more welcoming as attacks happen in an attempt to appease extremists until at last Europe is no longer populated by Europeans.

On the timescale of centuries and millenia, it's amazing how little has changed in the past thousand years. This could be just another couple chapters in Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. (Which, for those who don't know, covers mostly in later chapters the European nations and the various Muslim empires.)

Re:The War ISIS Wants by kuschku on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @08:53AM (#10580981)
> Maybe instead, European nations should look into instituting domestic policies that encourage the population to maintain a healthy replacement rate.

So, 18 months maternity/paternity leave, 180€ per month per child you have, plus tax breaks, plus better credit rating, plus 12 more sick days a year, plus subsidized kindergarten and daycare (with guaranteed daycare place from age 3 on), cheap whole-day school for children, and after-school care for them, is not enough?

What else are we supposed to do? Seriously? We have all this, and still birth rates below 1.2 children in Germany. Seriously.

Re:The War ISIS Wants by Riesling on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @10:45AM (#10581772)
I can only speak from a German perspective but the real problem from my point of view is that in todays world everything seems as if it is going down slope.

Todays generation has less job security than the generation before.

Todays generation does not have a secured pension (like the generation before had).

It is expected of todays generation to be a life-long learner (if you are not, your economic value drops immediately and if your job gets terminated you fall back to the same support someone receives, who has never worked in their life before).

Affordable housing has decreased.

It is expected of both parents to work (tell me again why I should have children, if I rarely see them?).

Pressure on children has increased as there is less time at school and less time at Uni to learn the same things (do I really want to do this to my possible future children?).

Especially for women having a child still is very bad for your career. Also if you have a fixed-term contract (which there is an increasing number of, your maternity employment protection is severely limited).

Of course this is just an anecdote, but at least in my circle of friends, those with secured government jobs are the ones having the most children. I would love to see some large-scale data on this subject.

Re:The War ISIS Wants by Scarblac on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @01:48PM (#10583127)
The few generations before were the only generations ever to have job security. I suspect it was because Europe was so devastated by the war (and so many of the previous generation were dead), that the economy couldn't help but grow.
Re:The War ISIS Wants by FeepingCreature on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @09:42AM (#10581295)
Honestly, no. That's not enough.

You're competing with jobs here, and you ask if 180€ a month is sufficient? And then you're surprised that women prefer to stay in the workforce?

Re:The War ISIS Wants by eli_gottlieb on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @10:28AM (#10581616)
You're also dealing with a labor market that punishes people who actually take their maternity/paternity leave, or who actually leave the labor force to raise children, by simply never letting them back into a career-track position ever again.

So not only does 180€/month not substitute for a second salary, it doesn't substitute for the permanent hit to the second wage-earner's career caused by raising children.

The economic message is clear: raising children is intended to be a low-paid, part-time job done on top of a full-time career for economically non-valuable warm-fuzzies.

Re:The War ISIS Wants by kuschku on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @11:43AM (#10582232)
> You're also dealing with a labor market that punishes people who actually take their maternity/paternity leave, or who actually leave the labor force to raise children, by simply never letting them back into a career-track position ever again.

By the way, in Germany usually you are guaranteed to get back into your old job after the 18 months of maternity leave.

Re:The War ISIS Wants by anon4 on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @12:14PM (#10582493)
Industrialise child raising, like everything else.

Artificial wombs. Group day-care. Have women donate eggs, men donate sperm and combine them randomly. Make it the duty of every person to be a parent to 2 to 3 children with fines for not doing their part until they hit 30/40 years of age. The babies will be born never knowing their biological parents. Then they're sent to child-raising facilities, either government or private, which are subject to strict regulation against mistreatment and indoctrination. Only the mega-rich, or very rural will afford/choose to have babies the usual way.

This seems to be the only choice in a society where everyone has to work 40 hours per week to secure a living for him/herself. If you had guaranteed basic income that can cover the cost of children, people could leave their position for one to two years, maybe do contracting work from home on the side. You will need very strict laws against discriminating against those who chose to have children. Or, you know, make making children a specialised industry like everything else.

Re:The War ISIS Wants by CrimsnBlade on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @03:11PM (#10583624)
I certainly hope there is some sarcasm intended with this. A world where raising children is turned into an industry (makes me think of Orwell's 1984) is one that I would not enjoy being a part of.

It does however seem that the flow of the economy, the fact that no one is willing to slow down for anything, and everything needed to be finished yesterday, certainly hinders people from things such as having children. Companies simply see a mother on maternity leave as an employee that isn't producing, as cold as that sounds. It's sad how emotionless companies can be when they're focused solely on the dollar signs...

Re:The War ISIS Wants by anon4 on Wednesday November 18, 2015 @07:54AM (#10587382)
Not so much sarcasm, as cynicism... I mean it, if the current employer-employee dynamic persists, either you need women to sacrifice their career, or pay someone to bear your children. Which you then have no time to raise, so you pay someone to do it for you. You can find a certain parallel with characters in novels who are children of rich people who are never home and thus the child is raised by the wet nurse/maid/etc. If you do the same at scale, it should be cost-effective and probably the only option.

Fortunately, I'm pretty sure we'll run out of resources long before our greed for growth pushes us that far.

Edit: of course companies are emotionless. They aren't people. You should view any company of more than about 200 people as a super-organism. Every actor in the company acts in their own best interest, while kept in check by the people on top. The emergent behaviour is one of calculated exploitation.

Re:The War ISIS Wants by beachstartup on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @09:46AM (#10581327)
advanced, wealthy, egalitarian societies simply do not produce babies because nobody really needs them and they're extremely expensive both in actual cost and opportunity cost, especially for females. sure you can shift the cost from the family to the taxpayer or employer, but that doesn't actually remove it.

and this phenomenon is not limited to white people, i.e. japan, korea, singapore, taiwan.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e...

Re:The War ISIS Wants by lagudragu on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @10:02AM (#10581435)
It is not the fact that nobody needs them. It is rather that members of such societies delay this step (to an uncertain extent) due to having a large amount of possible/alternative life choices, which sadly a negative consequence of such a blossoming society.
Re:The War ISIS Wants by eli_gottlieb on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @10:19AM (#10581532)
It's not that people delay having children, it's that society punishes having children.

My fiancee's pregnant coworker was told (we live in the USA, unfortunately) that she would have six weeks of unpaid leave after giving birth, followed by two weeks of short-term disability insurance, and then she could return to work or lose her job. This is for a salaried, postdoctoral scientist at a biotechnology company. In a related matter, the same HR employee who explained that policy says that he opposes the very idea of paternity leave -- and he's a male homosexual.

Likewise, the largest wage gap between men and women isn't actually a gap between men and women, it's a gap between men and mothers.

It takes two incomes to support a household these days, and yet society punishes women for childbearing as if it only took one. What did they expect would happen under these conditions, that people would stop responding to economic incentives "because babies"?

Re:The War ISIS Wants by beachstartup on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @10:34AM (#10581669)
apparently all the benefits that exist in europe and asia still don't work, so i'm not really sure what your point is here, other than you want some free money for having a baby.

society doesn't 'punish' you for having children, having children is simply an expense somebody has to pay for, and nobody wants to do it.

you clearly don't want to pay the opportunity cost, as evidenced by your post, so what makes you think the employer wants to do it either? or the taxpayer?

Re:The War ISIS Wants by lagudragu on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @11:01AM (#10581896)
His / her point is that de facto the industry takes a point of view biased on an economical perspective towards the situation. (Your answer ironically does reflect this as well). The benefit of having children is to have a family and to, in a more biological sense, have offspring which ensures your dna remains within the society. Having a family takes time and enforcing a young parent (especially a person with such a background) to start working in a relative short amount of time is very taxing on their personal life. A better possible solution would be to let the young parent have the ability to work home for a couple days, rather than just giving the option to be fired.
Re:The War ISIS Wants by eli_gottlieb on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @12:56PM (#10582793)
Let me brag a little bit.

Myself and my fiancee don't have children yet. However, you may kinda want us in society's gene pool. After all, I've got a damned resilient immune system, she's wonderfully empathetic, and we're both ferociously clever and hardworking individuals who valued our educations and actually want to contribute to society. Hell, we're even proud of paying our taxes, we both volunteer for things in our spare time, and we consider time spent on civic or community affairs to be well-spent.

I'd be fine paying the "opportunity cost" myself, but you see, I'm not the one with the uterus. Really, if we could get by and support a kid on one income per couple, we could easily just make some sacrifices of Nice Things, but we can't. Yes, we actually are stuck between living as fiscally responsible adults in the Dual Income No Kids class, and the precarity of the so-called "middle class" nowadays, in which one layoff or unexpected medical emergency can throw the whole family into poverty.

It's become: housing, children (with the entailed college funds, housing cost of good public schools, etc.), responsible preparation for a rainy day -- pick any two.

Elizabeth Warren was lecturing people about this a decade ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GHg3GAeQ1Y

Re:The War ISIS Wants by beachstartup on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @10:33AM (#10581661)
i'm a business owner operating on thin margins and no outside funding. why should i be forced to pay for leave if one of my employees decides to have a baby? what if i'm a small company that simply can't afford it?
Re:The War ISIS Wants by beachstartup on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @10:55AM (#10581852)
i think "having other options" is a pretty good definition for "not need".
Re:The War ISIS Wants by lagudragu on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @09:14AM (#10581126)
These are mostly economical solutions. The problem however seems to be on a sociographic level.
Re:The War ISIS Wants by programmernews3 on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @08:04AM (#10580745)
> There seems something profoundly suciidally nihilistic in the idea that Europe should simply do nothing different and simply be more and more welcoming as attacks happen in an attempt to appease extremists until at last Europe is no longer populated by Europeans.

It reminds me of this fable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3Qw5xVn7c0

Re:The War ISIS Wants by simonh on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @07:54AM (#10580714)
>The article appears to be implying that Western nations should not make war against Daesh because "that's what they want."...

I agree the article spends a lot of time implying what we shouldn't do and not much time at all saying what might make for effective policies, but it's hardly advocating Islamising Europe either.

I took two things away from the article. One is that the kind of pretty much deliberate social and economic marginalization of Muslim minorities in France is a terrible mistake. You can have a pluralistic egalitarian society without insisting that everyone has to dress, talk and behave exactly like white western Europeans all the time. Having an Imperial legacy and historic connections with extensive regions of the wider world isn't compatible with being culturally allergic to anyone who looks or acts foreign. We in Europe need to build strong cultural bridges connecting us to the Muslim minorities in our midst that are now also Europeans and deserve respect and support. I may take flak for this, because it turns my stomach to imply that France has any responsibility for the recent attacks, but frankly the French state is not doing it's job.

The second lesson is regarding our foreign policy in the Middle East. Keeping out of Syria and letting whatever happens just happen hasn't worked. The result has been a breeding ground for radicalization and chaos that has exacerbated the situation in Iraq, and lead to the biggest Refugee crisis Europe has seen since WW2. The Iraq war was awful and the political pressure to withdraw and 'bring the troops home' intense, but doing so was a horrible mistake. Once you're in, you're in for better or worse. We can't wash our hands of these conflicts and expect that the resulting mess will stay put and not affect us.

As a corollary, I think that our consistent policy that none of the borders in the Middle east are up for negotiation is a mistake. If the Sunni, Shia and Kurd regions of Iraq want to be separate states, they should have the freedom to do so. Trying to insist that the Sunni minority had to stay welded to a larger hostile Shia population was just asking for unending trouble. Partition isn't always the right answer, but in some situations it needs to be an option.

Re:The War ISIS Wants by vlehto on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @11:26AM (#10582077)
>French state is not doing it's job

What state would be good example? What is good measure for succes here?

Re:The War ISIS Wants by woah on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @10:47AM (#10581790)
The only reason that Daesh exists is the idiotic and pointless wars that have been waged by the US and Europe in the Middle East. Destroying governments and airlifting in weapons is handing them victories and arming them. Their existence is the result of 15 years of a "war on terror". And your conflation of low birth rates in Europe with the topic of war is a symptom of very confused thinking.
Re:The War ISIS Wants by eli_gottlieb on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @08:45AM (#10580931)
>Indeed. And there seems, to me, to be something nihilistic in the idea that Europeans should simply let immigrants replace them. Maybe instead, European nations should look into instituting domestic policies that encourage the population to maintain a healthy replacement rate.

That would require blaspheming against the Austerity Gods.