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Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by nugget on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @12:49PM (#10547945)
There are some interesting social trends at work here. One of the most interesting to me is the concept of Assortive Mating. This is the idea that 30 years ago a physician, for example, would likely marry a nurse, or an executive would likely marry his secretary. Whereas today, the physician marries the executive and the nurse marries the secretary instead. Rather than pair one high and one low income/wealth/status individual together and reduce overall inequality, the gap (financially, socially, and culturally) is now widened even more. And of course this inequality is very likely to impact the next generation because the well educated, high income parents (now with more uniformly high income extended families) tend to give a higher level of attention, resources, and support to their children compared to the children of the poor, working, and middle classes.
Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by mahyarm on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:52PM (#10548826)
I think part of this is driven by workplace sexual harassment laws, conflict of interest policies and relationship disclosure policies in your examples.

The risks for dating your assistant or a nurse are higher compared to what it was 30-60 years ago for example. Now it's safer to date someone at the same income level. Or someone in the same social group but outside of work, which will tend to be the same income level again compared to a workplace.

The other part is probably driven by how there are more dual income families competing for the same limited resources, such as housing, making the income of your spouse more relevant.

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by totalrobe on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @04:22PM (#10549385)
Well paid DINKs are the only people buying houses where I live (DC metro area)
Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by kbenson on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @01:25PM (#10548224)
I'm not sure that's really as much of an income gap as you may think. You are taking modern assumptions, that a woman can succeed in any career, and applying it to a society that it was arguably less true in. It's entirely possible the nurse or secretary of twenty years ago might be a physician or executive if brought up twenty years later.

Additionally, I think you are conflating education with social standing, when they are somewhat different, and there have been different levels of social pressure against doing either at different times in history.

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by nugget on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @01:33PM (#10548289)
Here's an interesting paper on the topic:

http://www.nber.org/papers/w19829

I agree that females who would have become nurses and secretaries in the past are now becoming physicians and executives, and without doubt this a good thing. My observation is just that by solving one problem (limited opportunities for women to become professionals) we inadvertently encouraged another (assortive mating on the rise which reinforces inequality).

It's also interesting you mention social pressure at different times in history. I am working my way through Downtown Abbey at the moment and it reminds me that throughout history there have been strong pressures for people to marry within their own class/caste systems. Probably for many reasons, but one of them is certainly the maintenance of wealth and power, which has typically been far less equal throughout those historical periods than the US is today. The post WW1 period in the US has been the exception not the norm.

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by kbenson on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @01:42PM (#10548343)
I won't dispute that there is some level of extra assortive mating going on because of more equal opportunities for women. Even if it was just due to more opportunity and exposure, that makes sense. I do question whether in the past if the physician that married the nurse was really providing any sort of opportunity for status change (in either economic or social standing) in most cases, since I imagine the nurse and physician probably came from similar social standings, and thus likely similar economic standings.

If the nurse or secretary of 20 or more years ago was "from a good family", what change was really spurred by the union?

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by vox_mollis on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @01:48PM (#10548388)
because the well educated, high income parents (now with more uniformly high income extended families) tend to give a higher level of attention, resources, and support to their children compared to the children of the poor, working, and middle classes.

That's the uncontroversial perspective, yes. The more controversial, but far better-supported-by-evidence perspective is that the estimated 40-80% contribution that genes make to people's intelligence, conscientiousness, and work ethic is much more likely to be at play, here.

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by YeGoblynQueenne on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @06:06PM (#10550052)
> the estimated 40-80% contribution that genes make to people's intelligence, conscientiousness, and work ethic is much more likely to be at play, here.

I don't think you really need to get into genetics to explain anything here. Some people get lucky, their children inherit their wealth and maybe squander it after a few generations, or maybe they don't. Neither the parents nor the children need to be particularly smart; they just need to get lucky.

Using money as a measure of intelligence is very risky. On the one hand, sure, everyone wants to be filthy rich (presumably) so there's a lot of competition. On the other hand, there are large swaths of the whole world population that will find it impossible to be the next Zuckerberg or the next Bill Gates- say, a daughter of a Bangladeshi weaver is probably not going to travel to Silicon Valley and fund the next unicorn startup, sell it for billions and bequeath some of them to her children.

That's not because of a difference in intelligence with someone who will follow that path. It's because we can't fit 7 billion people in Silicon Valley, and a few tens of thousands of jobs in tech.

I guess you can argue that the people who are already in Silicon Valley have some sort of genetic advantage but unfortunately that way lies a whole bunch of very gnarly racial bias that is going to be extremely fiddly to untangle. Therefore, see above: using money as a measure of intelligence is very risky.

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by pyrocat on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @01:57PM (#10548452)
> better-supported-by-evidence

hah, ok, go ahead and make that claim with zero links to back it up. Please, tell me more about eugenics.

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by vox_mollis on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:27PM (#10548633)
Steve Hsu giving a talk @ Google on the topic, with myriad citations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62jZENi1ed8

Four studies cited on this handy chart:

https://jaymans.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/iq-heritability-...

It's very well-established science that you could have easily googled, but downvoting unpopular research, pointing and shrieking "eugenics!" is a better argumentation technique, I suppose.

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by papapra on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:59PM (#10548876)
Your post should be submitted here too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10545689
Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by burkaman on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:17PM (#10548582)
Saying genes contribute to intelligence is not eugenics. Here's the first link I saw: http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v20/n1/full/mp2014105a.html

From the abstract: "Intelligence is one of the most heritable behavioural traits."

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by wyago on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @03:03PM (#10548892)
Native language is an almost perfectly heritable trait, but that does not imply it is genetic.

(However, it is true that saying that genes contribute to intelligence isn't eugenics. Eugenics is a methodology where you attempt to selectively breed humankind by broader intent, rather than by emergent properties of human tendencies. A proposed trait to optimize is often intelligence, but similarly frequently it's attractiveness and things like that. Genetic influence on intelligence is simply a hypothesis whose testing would have consequences on the practice of eugenics.)

------- edit ------- I see your reply to the other comment. I think a quote from the article that makes your point far better is "[...] studies have consistently shown that genetic influence on individual differences in intelligence is substantial." I negligently assumed you were specifically talking about heritability.

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by burkaman on Thursday November 12, 2015 @09:32AM (#10553303)
I can't say for sure, but I think at least in biological sciences, heritability specifically refers to genetics.

From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability): "Heritability is a statistic used in breeding and genetics works that estimates how much variation in a phenotypic trait in a population is due to genetic variation among individuals in that population."

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by danharaj on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:47PM (#10548788)
Heritability is a relative measurement. You need to know what environmental factors you are controlling for in order to measure it. Because we live in societies that are highly stratified based on attributes that are genetically linked there can be environmental effects on intelligence that are difficult or impossible to correct for that create a correlation between genetics and intelligence.
Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by burkaman on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:58PM (#10548869)
I know, that's why I linked to an article written by scientists that understand that, with hundreds of references to actual studies. The article goes into a lot of depth about what they mean by heritability, what genes are involved and how they are involved, what studies have led to these conclusions, etc.

The section titled "Intelligence brings (some) genetics to ‘social’ epidemiology" addresses your concerns about environmental factors.

I don't think it's very controversial to say genes contribute to intelligence. Genes contribute to everything, how could they not affect intelligence? This isn't eugenics, nobody is saying we should (or could) use this information to selectively breed humans, and nobody is saying intelligence can be correlated to race.

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by danharaj on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @03:14PM (#10548972)
I get what you're saying. I don't think it's contentious to say genetics influence intelligence. One thing that I strongly disagree with about the way intelligence research is done is that it seems highly based on tests of individual intelligence. There's no IQ test for groups of people.

We know that selection happens at the level of genes, not individuals. You can't measure the fitness of genes by evaluating their effects solely on individuals because their effects may involve ensembles of individuals. Since humans are highly social beings, I'd expect our genes to be selected for intelligence at the level of cooperating brains as well as individual brains. There doesn't seem to be much research on measuring this aspect of intelligence.

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by ashwinaj on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @02:36PM (#10548707)
Not everyone has to be a rocket scientist. At least today some manual labor is required (handyman, janitors, construction workers, farmers and the like). The issue the author I think is pointing out is the fact that low wage workers are squeezed out.
Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by beachstartup on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @01:09PM (#10548109)
there is quite a bit of politically impolite theorizing on the internet these days about the rise of women in the academic and business contributing to the decline of marriage and rise in inequality (as a whole). i.e. women don't marry down, and men are falling further behind.
Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by circlecrimson on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @01:30PM (#10548269)
The cause of this was the vilification of motherhood by society. Girls needed to be "strong independent women" and the concept of women being a kind and nurturing homemaker was seen as old fashioned, even though these skills are absolutely essential to raising a well grounded, sensible self actuated and well adjusted child. The fabric of our society depends on it and somehow this was allowed to happen.
Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by YeGoblynQueenne on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @06:15PM (#10550093)
Woa, woa. Wait a second- why is the mother the one that has to stay home and raise the child with her "kind and nurturing" homemaking skills? Why can't the dad stay home with the kids and leave the mom be the "strong independent" woman she wants to be?

Society vilifies motherhood? Then all the dads who want to put the borked society back together again can take up the mantle of the caring parent. Be my guests, eh.

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by aianus on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @10:15PM (#10551079)
> Why can't the dad stay home with the kids and leave the mom be the "strong independent" woman she wants to be?

Because the wife won't allow it; it's extremely unattractive to women to be a stay-at-home-husband, or so I've been told (by women).

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by circlecrimson on Thursday November 12, 2015 @11:44PM (#10558048)
Women are, in the vast vast majority, far superior at raising children. To deny this is to deny reality.
Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by lordCarbonFiber on Friday November 13, 2015 @03:57PM (#10562354)
[citation not found]
Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by mikeash on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @06:18PM (#10550108)
This does not appear to be the case at all. Women are merely encouraged to be both now.
Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by bluedino on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @04:14PM (#10549335)
>> 30 years ago a physician, for example, would likely marry a nurse

Women have mad inroads in the workplace. Women don't necessarily look to 'marry up' and stay home, they can be the executive now.

The secretary still gets married, she's just the second wife.

Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by gaius on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @12:54PM (#10547995)
They tried to do this deliberately in the early 20th century, incentivise college professors to breed and so on. Events transpired to make eugenics programmes unacceptable however.
Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by chc on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @01:01PM (#10548046)
I think nugget's point wasn't about eugenics so much as discouraging the concentration of wealth in specific groups.
Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by CodeCube on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @01:08PM (#10548098)
hahaha, really? I'm curious, is there any writings or media on this phenomenon? was it similar to the danish "Do it for mom" campaign (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B00grl3K01g)?
Re:What happens when a culture is driven by the need for mon... by plonh on Wednesday November 11, 2015 @04:14PM (#10549333)
Going back to feudal times , arranging marriages among aristocracy was a major issue. No princesses marrying peasants.