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Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by zappo2938 on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @09:17AM (#10425179)
The role of liver function and glycogen should be included in this conversation.[1] There might be a lot more at work than just elevated blood sugar levels.

In most normal people, meaning without diabetes and other metabolism problems, the liver doesn't immediately convert sugar to fat. Rather extra sugar is converted to glycogen which can be easily accessed for energy. What happens when a runner carbo loads the night before a race? The pasta she eats is coveted to glycogen and stored in the liver not to fat.

However, when the liver storage of energy is full, it then converts the excess to fat. Think about this for a second. The glycemic index and load don't apply because most people convert excess blood sugar to a readily available energy stored in the liver as glycogen not fat.

The problem is that Americans culturally never deplete the storage of energy in the liver because of two reasons; first, Americans snack all the time and drink sugary drinks, and, second, which I don't understand, we have developed an idea that we should eat huge third meals at night.

A big dinner will completely replenish the energy stores in the liver leaving excess sugar that will be converted into fat during sleep. Perhaps, it is smarter to eat a decent breakfast that contains simple sugars which are absorbed faster into the blood stream, a big lunch which will provide energy for the rest of the day, and a small dinner to satiate hunger.

For a person who wakes up around 7am the fast should begin around 5pm in order to let the sugars deplete around bed time. There is no reason to have readily available sugars while sleeping. And then in the morning break the fast.

There is no reason to have big dinners which are ridiculous.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogen

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by bad_user on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @09:34AM (#10425269)
> ... the fast should begin around 5pm ... there is no reason to have big dinners which are ridiculous

Actually there is a very big reason for why your advice is harmful, for me at least, but I suspect that for others as well. At 5pm I'm still at work, which means that whatever meal I'll have will be fast food and not a home cooked meal.

But even more problematic is that dinner is also the perfect opportunity to sit together with your family, as in that moment during the day that can be shared without feeling rushed and if you want to sit together with your wife and kids, anything less than 8pm is not doable, as afternoons are usually unpredictable, as for example that's also the time of day when people go shopping or solve other chores.

The family dinner is a matter of cultural inheritance that we've been forgetting and I'm willing to bet that this trait of modern life is much more harmful than fats, carbohydrates or whatever identified nutritional element is the enemy du-jour.

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by anunderachiever on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @02:09PM (#10427293)
> At 5pm I'm still at work, which means that whatever meal I'll have will be fast food and not a home cooked meal.

You can also take a "home cooked meal" with you to work - for lunch purposes.

> But even more problematic is that dinner is also the perfect opportunity to sit together with your family

It is an opportunity - why do you think it is the _perfect_ opportunity?

> The family dinner is a matter of cultural inheritance that we've been forgetting and ...

There are many ways to share time together - it's not necessary to eat while doing so.

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by zappo2938 on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @09:52AM (#10425379)
The American overweight problem is cultural and not an issue with eating high or low glycemic foods like the article states. If losing weight is an issue for someone. They are better off having a larger second meal and a smaller third meal even if that third meal is at 9 or 10pm so they can enjoy it with family or after work. The idea is not to have more blood sugar than then the liver can store as glycogen at bed time.

Everyone is different. If someone is really thin they probably should eat a massive third meal because the body does need stored body fat too.

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by visakanv on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:21AM (#10425565)
> The American overweight problem is cultural and not an issue with eating high or low glycemic foods like the article states.

Why not both?

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by zappo2938 on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:40AM (#10425710)
You are correct. Normal people should eat low glycemic foods also, true. But, not for the same reason that diabetic people have to. A diabetic person can't handle spikes in blood sugar, while a normal person can without consequence.

What is interesting is the mechanism that causes low glycemic food to digest slower. It's the fiber! Processed Uncle Ben's has .6 grams of dietary fiber per serving while brown rice has 3.5 grams per serving. For the same reason brown rice takes much, much longer to cook breaking down the cellulose to make it palatable, brown rice takes much, much longer to have it's energy absorbed into the blood stream, the fiber.

When a person eats low glycemic therefore high fiber foods, they are getting the same amount of satiation per same quantity of food, but that fiber is passing through without being absorbed. So, people eating low glycemic foods are consuming less calories for the same level of satiation. That is the 10,000 ft view but it more complicated than that because different foods have different levels of satiation based on many things that are more than just physiological but also psychological.

The article says that high blood sugar levels lead to weight gain which isn't entirely true in most people. High blood sugar levels while the liver has stored as much energy as it can in the sugar analogue glycogen leads weight gain and eating low or high glycemic foods doesn't matter.

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:44AM (#10425747)
I understand that 'satiation' is related to blood sugar rising. In my experience those healthy foods absolutely do not promote satiation.
Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by wdewind on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:14AM (#10425517)
It really really doesn't matter how you time your calories.
Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by omarchowdhury on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:22AM (#10425578)
Please elaborate further. Sources et al.
Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by wdewind on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:59AM (#10425868)
Do you have any specific questions? I don't feel like a source is necessary here because this is generally accepted as fact and has been reproduced countless times. There is no science showing caloric timing being significant (physically) in terms of weight management. Mentally (as your sibling comment points out) sure, but physically absolutely not. You don't get fat from eating late, you get fat from eating an extra meal late.
Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by omarchowdhury on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @11:10AM (#10425949)
The specific question I have is regarding what the liver does if very large meals are eaten within a short window (hence the relevancy of caloric/meal timing). Can't the liver only hold a certain amount of glycogen before having to transport the excess matter to the fat cells?
Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by wdewind on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @11:15AM (#10425995)
Sure, but since you've packed such a large percentage of your calories into this one meal, what happens to that fat at the later time when you would otherwise be eating again?
Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by omarchowdhury on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @11:20AM (#10426028)
Then all things being equal would it not be better to space out short meals to prevent fat generation at all?
Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by wdewind on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @12:14PM (#10426435)
It shouldn't really make any difference. The point is fat is an energy store and your body is pretty good at storing excess calories and then using them again when needed.

Things do get a little more interesting, and the science becomes a little weaker, when you start thinking about nutritional timing in the context of body composition instead of overall weight. For instance, muscle protein synthesis remains pretty constant in someone with protein at most meals. But you are able to "spike" it about once every 3 hours (the mechanism seems to have a threshold around 8g of leucine, after which it can't be spiked again for another 3 hours).

So in theory the optimal way to eat the same number of calories, all else being equal, is evenly divided into a meal every three hours you are awake.

But it's a micro-optimization and doesn't make a huge difference, and again the science isn't super well reproduced there. People certainly succeed at elite levels with many different meal timings.

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by herge on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:27AM (#10425608)
To manage weight, it doesn't matter. But to manage feelings of hunger, it does.
Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by taneq on Thursday October 22, 2015 @08:30AM (#10431793)
Nor does it matter whether you eat carbs or fats or protein. In the immortal words of Doctor Rudy, 'You haf. To eat. Less.'
Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by bagacrap on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:08AM (#10425480)
Perhaps the strategy should be to eat when hungry and abstain when not hungry. (Americans tend to be good at the former but not the latter.) A one-size-fits-all approach to meal timing is not practical or effective.

> There is no reason to have readily available sugars while sleeping

Night time is when humans are most hormonally active, and going to bed with an energy surplus will help engender a more anabolic state.

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by visakanv on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:41AM (#10425723)
> For a person who wakes up around 7am the fast should begin around 5pm in order to let the sugars deplete around bed time. There is no reason to have readily available sugars while sleeping. And then in the morning break the fast.

I can only speak from my own experience– but I'm a tall, skinny guy and if I don't eat for longer than a couple of hours, I start getting low blood sugar symptoms. My heart starts racing and I have trouble focusing or sleeping.

I did some reading about it, and I can't remember the exact science, but I think I read that if your blood sugar levels are too low, your brain worries that you'll go into a coma and it'll try to keep you awake.

Now that I wrote that down, it sounds a little pseudosciency, but that's consistent with my experience. Would love to hear from anybody who has a better understanding.

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by gabemart on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @11:23AM (#10426058)
This seems like a huge premature optimisation. Reduced-calorie diets result in clinically meaningful weight loss regardless of which macronutrients they emphasise [1]. For someone who wants to lose weight or maintain their current weight, eating a calorie controlled diet is the first (and often only) thing they need to do.

Eating a calorie-controlled diet is primarily a psychological challenge. They should therefore eat with whatever frequency and quantity they personally find makes sticking to a calorie-controlled diet easiest, whether that's eating 2 meals a day at 07:00 and 13:00, or eating 5 meals a day, or eating 1 meal a day at 21:00, or whatever works for them.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19246357

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by rgoddard on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @12:42PM (#10426617)
When talking about a diet you want to break it down into several dimensions. 1) Does this diet lead to weight loss? This boils down to burning more calories then consumed. As mentioned in a different comment you can lose weight eating only twinkies. 2) Sustainability of diet - can the diet be maintained over the long term, and this plays in to the psychological challenge you mentioned. 3) Long term health effects - does the diet promote overall long term health or have potential negative consequences. Something like the twinkie diet most likely does not. i.e. does a twinkie have enough vitamin c to prevent scurvy 4) Interactions with personal health conditions - how does the diet affect your own current health condition. I am sure a diabetic would not fare well on the twinkie diet
Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by misev on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:15PM (#10430046)
> For a person who wakes up around 7am the fast should begin around 5pm in order to let the sugars deplete around bed time. There is no reason to have readily available sugars while sleeping.

This is not convincing. According to [1] it seems like system glucose utilization is only about 10-20% lower during sleep.

Muscles store even more glycogen than the liver btw (~500g vs ~100g).

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC293874/

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by doublerebel on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @11:18AM (#10426009)
You've brought up good points about carbs. However, It's arguably better and more realistic to skip breakfast than to have a small dinner at 5pm. Typical breakfast foods are full of carbs and can be more easily avoided. This is how I and many others use Intermittent Fasting to avoid carb overload.
Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by pandaman on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:35AM (#10425672)
Speaking about drinks (not just sugary) with the food - I was taught as a child not to do that and chew my food instead of washing it down with a drink. I imagine you can eat much more this way but, otherwise, this seems to be a harmful habit to me.
Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by TurboHaskal on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:35AM (#10425665)
Quality sleep is a good enough reason for me to have available sugars while sleeping.

I rest my best after a nice dinner, whereas skipping it means that I'll take longer to fall sleep and more often than not end up waking up way earlier than I should.

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by pjc50 on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @09:28AM (#10425236)
the fast should begin around 5pm

.. which requires that lunch be the main meal, which could be difficult in countries where eating at your desk is normalised.

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by a8da6b0c91d on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:23AM (#10425585)
> leaving excess sugar that will be converted into fat

De-novo lipogenisis from sugar in practice does not happen humans. If you do something goofy like keep dietary fat under 5 grams and eat hundreds of grams of carbohydrate some monounsaturated fats can be synthesized, but it's fair to say that it basically doesn't happen.

Any fat on your body came directly from fats you ate. Sugar and carbohydrate only matter with regard to weight loss to the extent they displace fat metabolism.

Re:The Fats You Don’t Need to Fear, and the Carbs That You Do by TurboHaskal on Wednesday October 21, 2015 @10:49AM (#10425786)
And even if it did, it's good to keep in mind all the energy that is lost converting sugars into fat during DNL, which isn't exactly the most efficient process.

In terms of fattening macro-nutrients, the rank would be fat > sugars > protein.

People keep ignoring this simple fact (that fat is already fat after all), yet argue endlessly about physiological stuff and ancestor mumbo jumbo.