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Re:Resigning from the Haskell Platform by paulsutter on Tuesday October 13, 2015 @04:45AM (#10379198)
I like that description, it conveys a sense for what can be appealing about it.

But, if I look at Deep Learning, I see a freight train to the future. If I look at Haskell, I see a lot of... well, debating about... things.. well I just don't see where it's going. I get the sense that it's a gleeful little clever club that exists as an alternative to doing actual work.

And, where's the counterexample, Haskell is a freight train to where? What's the future that Haskell brings?

This is really a sincere question. I've been programming long enough to feel the limitations of existing tools. But, will humans even be coding in 30 years?

Re:Resigning from the Haskell Platform by rifung on Tuesday October 13, 2015 @05:06AM (#10379259)
Most proponents would say it helps you write bug free software or to write software in a cleaner way. I'd agree with that, and even say it's much more fun than other languages I've used (Python, Java, Ruby, etc).

But in the end I don't think it actually enables us to do anything that we haven't been able to do before, so it's probably not as significant as Deep Learning in that respect. To be completely honest, I am not convinced it has huge practical application, as I don't think it will ever be picked up by industry in its current form.

The reason I don't think it will be adopted by industry is that a company's concerns are typically not really aligned with a programming language researcher's concerns. For example, a company probably wants a language that is easy to hire for and easy to train for, and Haskell is definitely neither of these things. Also, from what I've heard, it's very difficult to debug and benchmark Haskell programs, perhaps due to its laziness.

Take all this with a grain of salt though as I've only been learning it for 1 year and read the majority of two books on it; I'm far from an expert.

Re:Resigning from the Haskell Platform by moomin on Tuesday October 13, 2015 @05:42AM (#10379348)
I'm not sure Haskell's a freight train anywhere. :) It's an all stations passenger train to deeper understanding.

More generally, learning Haskell (and to a great extent any programming language) is about a different way of doing things. Deep Learning is a thing to do. (It can also be a way of doing other things, but my point is that they're at different levels.)

With that said, your time is limited. Studying Haskell, Deep Learning or Statistics (an option that is criminally underrated) is a choice you have to make, and Haskell isn't necessarily the best use of your time.

If you feel like dipping your toe in the water, though a) install stack https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack b) try doing this course (http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html) and _do the homework_. If you find you're enjoying it, you'll have your answer. If you're not enjoying it, it's probably not worth your time.

And for the record, I have no idea what some of the top-flight Haskellers are talking about either. But maybe one day I will.

Re:Resigning from the Haskell Platform by jamesbrock on Tuesday October 13, 2015 @08:37AM (#10379946)
> What's the future that Haskell brings?

That's a great question, paulsutter. The great computer scientist Peter Landin in 1965 asked a similar question about the future of programming languages. To answer the question, he imagined a wonderful futuristic programming language with lambda calculus at its core. He named that language ISWIM, and described it in a paper entitled The Next 700 Programming Languages.

Haskell is essentially ISWIM with a Hindley-Milner type system added to it.

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~crary/819-f09/Landin66.pdf

Haskell is science fiction from 1965. The future that Haskell brings is right now, the 21st century future.

Re:Resigning from the Haskell Platform by pjc50 on Tuesday October 13, 2015 @05:09AM (#10379273)
will humans even be coding in 30 years?

Yes. People will probably still even be writing in C and C++ in 30 years. The same predictions were made about "4GLs" 30 years ago and have not come to pass.

Re:Resigning from the Haskell Platform by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday October 13, 2015 @08:50AM (#10380010)
Deep learning wasn't advancing at a 2X rate/year 30 years ago. Past performance does not indicate future performance.
Re:Resigning from the Haskell Platform by kqr on Wednesday October 14, 2015 @04:23AM (#10385518)
But it does give a strong hint. I personally don't prophesise somethings demise in a shorter timespan into the future than it has existed for. I find that to be a good rule of thumb.

High-level programming has been around for 50ish years, so we probably won't get rid of it for at least another 50.

Re:Resigning from the Haskell Platform by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday October 14, 2015 @04:28AM (#10385531)
It is a heuristic that assumes no disruption. If someone figured out how to approach human-level intelligence in the next 30 years, then programming will die then. Are we certain? No. But it is a definite possibility. There is also a possibility of a cybernetic hybrid between programming and machine learning that also doesn't really resemble today or yesterday's HLLs.
Re:Resigning from the Haskell Platform by chriswarbo on Tuesday October 13, 2015 @06:26AM (#10379464)
> if I look at Deep Learning, I see a freight train to the future... will humans even be coding in 30 years?

If the implication is that machine learning will make human programmers obsolete, then no that won't happen. What will happen is that more programmers will be spending more time tweaking, training and debugging/reverse-engineering machine learning systems.

Re:Resigning from the Haskell Platform by fho on Tuesday October 13, 2015 @08:34AM (#10379939)
What hopefully will happen is that programmers spend less time tweaking and debugging programs. Haskell is actually on the forefront with this with systems like [Haxl](https://code.facebook.com/posts/302060973291128/open-sourcin...) at Facebook where, after some front-up development, speed and safety is increased for the users of the system. (Disclaimer: Haskell Fanboy)
Re:Resigning from the Haskell Platform by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday October 13, 2015 @08:57AM (#10380058)
Haskell has this philosophy that you first think really hard about what you want to do, then write an elegant well typed program in Haskell to do it. The real world is usually much more messy, the problem and solution are not well defined, you will need to start coding just to figure out what you need to really code. So Haskell assumes well typed code can do no wrong, but often we are debugging our own mental models.
Re:Resigning from the Haskell Platform by fho on Tuesday October 13, 2015 @09:17AM (#10380206)
I found that once you know your way around the basics (which the FTP mentioned here is a big part of), it becomes quite trivial to just "hack away". I am now 4 years aboard the Haskell train and use Haskell for scripting work I would have used bash or Python before. That said I have about 10 years of practical Java experience under my belt and Haskell was refreshingly different. But before this thread get's out of hand I'll keep my fanboy mouth shut ;)
Re:Resigning from the Haskell Platform by adwn on Tuesday October 13, 2015 @05:02AM (#10379239)
> But, will humans even be coding in 30 years?

I don't see the connection between Deep Learning and removing humans from the software engineering process, so yes, humans will still be coding in 30 years.

(and some of it will still be done in C, and maybe even in COBOL)