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Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by aggieben on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @09:54PM (#10343736)
> Their victory is so complete that I'm now surprised when I come across a computer running Windows.

Sigh. It's clear that PG, as good a writer as he is, is the one in another world.

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by mhartl on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:25PM (#10343867)
When two worlds are different, each is "another world" to the other. What pg means is—well, actually, he tells us later in the same paragraph:

All the computer people use Macs or Linux now. Windows is for grandmas, like Macs used to be in the 90s. So not only does the desktop no longer matter, no one who cares about computers uses Microsoft's anyway.

Obviously, pg is exaggerating slightly here for effect, but if you go to a conference for a "cool" language like Elixir or Go—or even for a more established but still slightly edgy language like Python or Ruby—what you'll see in the audience is a few islands of Windows in a sea of Linux and Macs. Go to a more corporate-y conference and you'll see a lot more Windows. So—which world is the past, and which is the future? (Hint: At the corporate-y conference, are there more or fewer Macs than there were five years ago?)

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by greggman on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:46PM (#10343926)
And if you go to anything game dev related, you know, that place where all the cutting edge GPU related stuff happens, you'll see Windows everywhere.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by mhartl on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @01:16AM (#10344290)
When virtually every dev not in gaming is using a Mac, which is the future, and which is the past?
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by aggieben on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @07:57AM (#10345437)
This is the same myopic view expressed by PG: you're only seeing what's right in front of you. There are plenty of web developers who aren't in gaming and use Windows on a day-to-day basis. This business of "future" and "past" is exceedingly silly. The right choice is the tool that you can do your job best with.

For lots of people, that's Linux. For lots of other people, that's Windows.

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by mhartl on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @01:36PM (#10347516)
The way to tell the difference between the past and the future is to look at the derivative. For example, in an attempt to get to know Windows better, I recently asked the only top Windows-using dev I know what his environment and tooling look like. "Oh, I switched to a Mac last year," he said. That migration is typical, and suggests that people who care about computers will continue preferentially switching from Windows to Mac and Linux.

A similar thing happened a few years ago when Subversion was still the dominant version control system and SourceForge was still the main repository for open-source projects. It was 2008, and I was at a dinner seated between the CEO of CollabNet, principal corporate backer of Subversion, and the outgoing CEO of SourceForge. I asked the CollabNet CEO what he thought about Git. His view was that there was a winner among open-source VCSes, and that winner was Subversion. Then I asked the SourceForge CEO if he'd heard of GitHub. He had, but was unconcerned, since SourceForge was was cutting million-dollar deals while GitHub was still relatively small, having launched only in April of that year.

Now, I was in Y Combinator at the time, so I definitely shared pg's "myopia", and at that point basically everyone I knew had switched to Git and GitHub. I thought to myself, "These guys have already lost, and they don't even know there's a war." And indeed things have played out exactly as I expected, with Git and GitHub crushing Subversion and SourceForge into irrelevance.

So you see that there's a fundamental asymmetry between what pg sees in front of him and what you might see. Being in YC means you're "living in the future" [1], which is why pg writes with such confidence about the direction things are going. Subversion, SourceForge, Windows; Git, GitHub, Mac, Linux. The latter may still be big in absolute numbers, but the derivative tells you that the smart money is on the latter going forward.

[1]: http://paulgraham.com/startupideas.html

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by aggieben on Friday October 09, 2015 @11:31AM (#10360681)
This reads persuasively, but the problem is that the same arguments have been made consistently since as long as I can remember. When I was an undergraduate, people were saying much the same thing, and almost nothing has really changed.

I myself have always had both Windows and Linux (and occasionally OSX) boxen around to help me do what I need to do - so what's right in front of me doesn't seem so one-dimensional as what PG writes about. I've also been in and out of some radically different industries (for example, appdev consulting vs aerospace & defense), and it seems pretty obvious to me that "best tool for the job" is the future and it always has been. That means there will always be a place for Windows and BSD/Linux+derivatives (I throw OSX in this bucket), and there will always be engineers of many stripes using each one (or multiples).

I mean, seriously: even Git - which really does seem to have utterly won the VCS wars from a certain perspective, is still just one of many in reality. Lots of people use Perforce. Legion upon legion still use TFS. BitKeeper is still kicking around. Subversion still has substantial usership. Even CVS is still around. Pretty much the only VCS technology that has truly been defeated is RCS/SCCS, and probably only because they never figured out how to handle directories or else they'd still be around too.

That's why I find these kinds of prognostications to be very silly (although fertile ground for gathering up fake internet points and/or blog readership).

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by daledavies on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @07:19AM (#10345326)
Dunno, I work in a team of web developers and none of us uses a Mac. Does that mean we're behind?
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by mhartl on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @01:21PM (#10347387)
N.B. Here I'm exaggerating for effect the same way pg was. Windows still has a huge market share among devs, but Macs dominate among those who are on the leading edge of technology development (such as those who attend, e.g., Elixir or Go conferences).
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by S4M on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @09:48AM (#10345955)
By "virtually every dev not in gaming", do you mean "virtually every dev not in gaming and living in an area of San Francisco known for its high rent and for producing small companies of dubious utility with crazy high valuations"?
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by HelloNurse on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @06:03AM (#10345090)
I'm working for an unusually Microsoft-intensive "corporate-y" customer, and even in my corner of the company the newest computers are Macs. Development is done on several virtual machine images with fancy tool and server setups and old Windows versions anyway; the only difficulty is SSD capacity.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by lqdc13 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:46PM (#10343925)
This is actually not the same thing. You can actually do the same things in Go/Python as you do in Java.

Windows is the one and only OS that runs video games well.

Same with a lot of other industries dealing with professionals who are not programmers. Example is modeling software (https://www.rhino3d.com/mac-feature-compare).

Maybe Valve will succeed with their Steam Boxes, but it's not the case yet.

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by Hydraulix989 on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @03:11AM (#10344624)
Windows is quickly becoming the OS for VR as well.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by eggy on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @12:35AM (#10344205)
Game dev is 'cool' and you will see mainly Windows machines with people coding C++, Lua and some others in MS Visual Studio. A big money industry. larger than Hollywood, where Linux and Macs are not seen much. I subscribe to quality over quantity: I love APL/J and Lisp. Lisp Flavored Erlang LFE over Elixir which is attractive to the Ruby crowd for its syntax. Ruby and Python as "edgy"?
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by mhartl on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @01:14AM (#10344288)
Ruby and Python as "edgy"?

I wrote "slightly edgy", which obviously changes the meaning, or else you wouldn't have deleted a word. And yes, Python and Ruby are slightly edgy compared to, say, Java or C++.

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by eggy on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @04:06AM (#10344764)
For the record, I quoted the word to isolate it, and frame a question instead of copying your entire paragraph. Fair enough though, you have answered with your opinion. Python has been around a while, is very popular and is used as the default language for the MIT course that once used Scheme for decades (with some dislike on choice of Python). IMO, Python is mainstream, and hardly "edgy". I was writing Blender 3D scripts in it in 2004. Ruby was novel when introduced, and perhaps you could have ascribed the word "edgy" then, but now Ruby is so mainstream with web dev, I don't see it. I don't program for a living, so I have the luxury of studying whatever I want for coding. I play with J/APL, Scheme/Lisp (Lisp Flavored Erlang - LFE), and F# and F* just recently. Edgy to me is not even those languages, but something like the programming language NONE [1].

[1] https://bitbucket.org/duangle/nonelang/src

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by cryptoz on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:15PM (#10343824)
Perhaps many of us are living in "another world", but I haven't seen a computer in the wild running Windows in the last ~6 months. I've been working in a few different co-working spaces in that time - mostly the startup crowd, I suppose, which heavily tilts towards Mac and Linux.

Certainly PG isn't the only one who doesn't see very many Windows computers, and I think this has probably been increasingly true over the last ~9 years since this piece was written.

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by rootlocus on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @04:20AM (#10344798)
This is a nice example for the Bayes theorem: what's the probability of seeing a computer running Windows "in the wild", given that "the wild" comprises the computers of a startup crowd located in the same area. When you're limiting the universe to such a small fraction of similar samples, you're bound to get skewed results.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by meow_mix on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:38PM (#10343902)
I think most college students will agree that they see windows every single day
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by doctaj on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:25PM (#10343866)
It's easy to get lost in your own bubble.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by doctaj on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:17PM (#10343832)
Yeah, OSX has like 8% market share at best. A person paying attention would be more surprised seeing a Mac.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by Mikeb85 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:24PM (#10343859)
A lot (most?) Windows 'installations' come in the form of legacy computers that haven't been upgraded in nearly a decade, or corporate boxes that are basically just terminals running MS Office...

When you're talking new personal devices, its mostly a mix of various tablets (non-MS), OSX, ChromeOS and Windows ultrabooks...

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by cryptoz on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:19PM (#10343838)
OS X market share can be 0% if your sample is a corporate office, or it can be 100% if you're in a startup space, a university class, etc. It really really depends on the context and your surroundings. Some people will be surprised by Windows, some by Mac. I think that PG probably assumes that the people he is around are building the future, and therefore, when he doesn't see Windows, he makes a connection there.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by doctaj on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:23PM (#10343852)
Yeah,I agree with that for sure. My stat was just overall - for desktop computers and laptops, which are admittedly on the decline.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by lqdc13 on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @12:00AM (#10344126)
A university class? I've never seen a single mac at my US state university 2 years ago.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by joslin01 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:30PM (#10343885)
In the startup world, it's definitely dead, which is probably a decent indicator of a trend that will eventually engulf the entire business world. If my business goes huge, there's no way in hell we're running on Windows and I suspect a lot of other founders are thinking the same thing.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by naasking on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:02PM (#10343985)
"Computer" is a very general term. Most computers people use on an everyday basis aren't running Windows. For instance, all of your tablets and phones are Android or iOS. Windows phones are virtually non-existent, and Windows tablets are more common, particularly for businesses, but not as common as the corresponding consumer tablets.

So PG was right in a strict sense, but not if you narrowly take "computer" to mean "desktop" or "laptop".

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by Mikeb85 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:21PM (#10343841)
Is he? I see a lot of MacBooks and tablets of non-Microsoft origin these days. Half the ThinkPads I see aren't running Windows...

When you talk development, its almost always on Linux or OSX, and deployed to a Linux server.

MS still holds on to a few markets, and still makes money and does cool things, but they're just not dominant anymore...

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by Frondo on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:26PM (#10343869)
Anecdotally, I've just moved over from Linux development to Microsoft, for web stuff. Visual studio and F# are sweet, in some ways I feel like I've been living in the dark ages of development.

A year ago I wouldn't have imagined myself saying this, but once they started open sourcing their stuff, I decided to take a look.

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by doctaj on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:31PM (#10343888)
I completely agree. You are missing out on a modern AND mature development platform using Microsoft stuff.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by eggy on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @12:41AM (#10344214)
I second that. F* language from MS with dependent types, and compiles to F# and OCaml. I finally gave MS Visual Studio CE a try, and I am blown away. I come from an Emacs/Slime/Lisp(SBCL) on Windows, not Linux, and now that MS has open sourced a lot of it, I am going to stick with it and see if I hit any blocks. Popularity or cool are not my guides. I do have Linux and Mac OS X at home too, but I am always on my Windows notebook.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by Mikeb85 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:33PM (#10343893)
Just curious, are you deploying on Windows Server?
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by Frondo on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @12:16AM (#10344155)
Don't know yet, I think it'll depend on how hard it is for me to get it running on Apache + mod_mono. Reason being, I do have a VPS with about 30 other sites (mostly Wordpress) right now.

If I can keep using my existing server for this new project, for now, then that's great. I know I'll eventually have to migrate it onto its own thing (it's a startup that is taking off, go me! :) ), but until I absolutely have to, I want to keep costs down and processes simple.

Still, if I've got to deploy to an MS-based VPS, that's certainly not the end of the world, not by a long shot. Just a different thing to learn.

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by dogma1138 on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @01:37AM (#10344341)
If you are going to use Apache and mono there is no reason to deploy a Windows server.

IIS performance on the other hand is amazing these days, Apache really needs to find a way to use http.sys.

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by WorldWideWayne on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @04:51PM (#10349002)
I do Node.js stuff in Visual Studio. It's better than anything.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by aggieben on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:57PM (#10343969)
"almost always"?

Really? Even in the server space, Windows still occupies a third of the market, and desktop statistics are somewhere more along the lines of 70%. For every "cool" startup developer, I can promise you there is an entire army of "not cool" developers doing things in Windows (or whatever).

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by douche on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:08PM (#10344002)
Raise a glass to the non-cool developers!

Office 365 is huge. Even the europeans are fleeing from the corpse of the IBM/Lotus stack like rats from a sinking ship. Obviously, I work in a Microsoft shop, but none of our customers (some serious financials, insurance corps, notable Fortune 500s) use Google Docs, and anyone big enough to need to run their own mail infrastructure is bailing on Domino for Exchange, or even going into the cloud with Office 365.

That's where the money is. You have to chase a metric shit-ton of $10 a month consumers to equal a million $ a year business contract.

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by Raed667 on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @02:53AM (#10344582)
3rd world (and Europe) average user still uses Windows as main OS. When you're in contact with only coders/devs you'll see a lot of Linux and macBooks but outside that small bubble Microsoft rules.
Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by RI_Swamp_Yankee on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @10:56AM (#10346377)
This is incorrect. The average user, globally, uses Android as their main OS. Desktops in developing nations are never going to reach the same level of ubiquity as in the US and Europe. AAA Gaming there will be console-driven as well.

Desktops in most applications are locked down to the point where they're dumb terminals to run Office and a browser, this is where MS rules, or creative/technical workstations, where Apple currently has a better story and is the only desktop maker growing market-share for the past couple years.

Re:Microsoft is Dead (2007) by gcb0 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:24PM (#10343861)
it is the san francisco bubble.

they also think there is a starbucks every 30ft all around the world. and that everyone has unlimited data plans for hundreds of dollar a month like they have running water.

dream on, SF.