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Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by kailuowang on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:56PM (#10194525)
It's not the copying that worries people, it's the lack of not-coping, i.e. innovations. iPod is not the first mp3 player, iPhone is not the first smart phone, but they were packed with innovative ideas that stood them out. We see less and less such ideas from Apple.

Their execution/quality control is still top notch though, but other companies are catching up.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by dasil003 on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @06:02PM (#10194945)
The problem is that after a string of successes like iMac, iPod, iTunes, iPhone, there is no way to out-do that. There is no market so ripe for disruption that plays to Apple's strengths the way that the iPhone setup. That's why the iPad is so disappointing to analysts and why nothing Apple does is that impressive now. There is no opportunity for the next iPhone-level success in the market today. It's out there somewhere in the future, but everyone carrying around a $700 pocket computer is a game changer of a magnitude that can only be approximated by physical implants. It certainly is not approached by any imaginable Watch or Google Glass type of device.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by threeseed on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @09:59PM (#10195805)
> There is no opportunity for the next iPhone-level success in the market today.

Oh yes there is. The car.

Very high margin. Plenty of opportunity to do something radically different.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by tallanvor on Thursday September 10, 2015 @04:09AM (#10196716)
Tesla is already there. I mean, Apple could still try, but they're not likely to come up with anything that people will consider "revolutionary".
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by 72deluxe on Thursday September 10, 2015 @05:34AM (#10197008)
Touch-screen steering wheel? What could possibly go wrong?

As an aside, I find the obsession with touchscreen interfaces in cars to be irritating because obviously the testers test these things whilst sat perfectly still in a stationary vehicle or in a car with hydrogas suspension (just kidding), and not on a typical road that has bumps. They're impossible to use whilst in motion as your arm bounces around.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by anjc on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @06:48PM (#10195170)
If Apple had made the Surface Pro (which hasn't existed for very long) before Microsoft then it would have been the next in that line of major innovations. They didn't, because of a lack of foresight, but the opportunity to create it was readily available.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by gress on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @10:13PM (#10195842)
The surface pro is a failure. Apple didn't make a pro tablet earlier because they understood the correct time to introduce such a product.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by anjc on Thursday September 10, 2015 @06:04AM (#10197104)
By what metrics is it a failure? Because when I last looked at Microsoft's financial statements, their revenue was up due to the Surface (Profit was down for unrelated reasons).

I'm assuming you haven't used a Surface Pro but you can mark my words now, Apple will release a direct copy of the Surface within 3 years. The iPad Pro is a glorified iPad and will be utterly unusable for doing anything professional, so it's not a copy at this stage.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by gress on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:29AM (#10198221)
This is already demonstrably false. The iPad is already in use for professional purposes, and if you'd watched it, you have seen the stage demo prove you wrong.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by anjc on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:39AM (#10198286)
What professional purposes?
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by gress on Thursday September 10, 2015 @11:52AM (#10198753)
Medicine, CAD, Commercial Aviation, Finance, Retail, Graphic Design & Illustration...

Pretty much everything serious.

https://www.apple.com/business/mobile-enterprise-apps/health...

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by com2kid on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @09:52PM (#10195782)
The main innovations that the iPod and iPhone launched with was in regards to their business models.

iPod had iTunes, true flat rate pricing for all music. Giant articles (if not books) have been written describing the huge challenge that was.

The iPhone was a completely new relationship between the phone manufacturer and the cellular carrier that allowed Apple to rake in unheard of profits. Their other main innovation with the iPhone was making a touch screen UI that was good. To be fair, that took a lot of engineering and UX work (early gen cap touch was terrible).

Apple was then able to pivot and make an app store built on existing infrastructure, another innovation that none of the other phone manufactures made. Yes "app stores" existed before the App Store, but they where not the one stop shop with guaranteed assurances that Apple offered. Executing on the App Store idea perfectly involved innovation for sure.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by bduerst on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @05:23PM (#10194708)
I dunno - Apple kind of killed NFC adoption by waiting so long to finally include it. They should have had it back in 2012.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by giovannibajo1 on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @06:14PM (#10195005)
That's because they are not a OEM that throws hardware together trying to differentiate, no matter what the software using it will be like. Apple added NFC the day they had the software and the service ready, with all the intricacies in making a secure and private payment system, that works offline, is as fast or faster than swiping a card with no passwords to type, and that makes them make money but without charging more neither the users neither the merchant, and is interoperable with existing credit cards and banks (including the per-bank customized provisioning process).

Putting everything together is several order of magnitude harder than adding a part number to a BOM years before the ecosystem is ready to use it appropriately. They had to get there feature by feature, one at a time. Touch ID was a stepping stone for instance, and that's a whole engineering and design task by itself. It's a multi-year evolution to get to the point of adding a service that incidentally happens to use NFC as one of the many involved technologies. So, no, they did not "add NFC" without Apple Pay.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by sigmar on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @06:53PM (#10195191)
>Apple added NFC the day they had the software and the service ready, with all the intricacies in making a secure and private payment system, that works offline, is as fast or faster than swiping a card with no passwords to type...

What specific changes have made it possible for NFC to work in this way? All those things you listed seem possible in 2012.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by npunt on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @07:47PM (#10195386)
Market changes - POS credit card machines were scheduled to be phased out in favor of chips and NFC by EOY2015 [1].

Apple Pay didn't come out of the blue. The impending POS infrastructure change created the opportunity to launch a better payments user experience in the 2014-2015 timeframe. Apple knew this, and developed/acquired/refined a better security method (touchID + tokenization) and corresponding user experience to negotiate on favorable terms with banks and merchants, which sealed the deal for many and created momentum toward getting stragglers onboard and reaching broad market penetration.

Just adding an NFC chip and calling it a day changes nothing. Few markets are penetrated by hardware - or even hardware and software - alone.

[1] http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2014/02/06/octob...

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by bduerst on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @08:12PM (#10195470)
That's not quite right. That article is about chip & pin only, and not about NFC. Apple made the business decision to build their own payments system and lock merchants in using Passbook, rather than use NFC, which is more open.

When it comes to market adoption of hardware, typically the market leader gets picked up for adoption. By forcing their own version of mobile payments (passbook) and not allowing NFC, the market was split and NFC adoption stymied.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by spiralpolitik on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @08:59PM (#10195607)
That's not quite right either.

Apple Pay does not require Apple-specific contactless payment terminals and will work with Visa's PayWave, MasterCard's PayPass, and American Express's ExpressPay terminals.

So merchants are not "locked in" to passbook.

The reason for Apple Pay success is that they worked with the companies in question so that the infrastructure was already in place when the phone was launched. I was in the UK the week of the Apple Pay launch there and the same terminals that 3 months prior were accepting my contactless card were now accepting my iPhone.

In other words it just worked.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by bduerst on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @11:58PM (#10196080)
None of that was true in 2012 when Apple released Passbook. [1]

The only reason Apple has support for those now in 2015 is because merchants weren't falling for the walled-garden ploy. Apple has finally caught up with other forms of payment, which is why Apple was a major staller for NFC technology adoption.

[1] http://gizmodo.com/5944863/apple-reveals-full-line-up-of-pas...

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by npunt on Thursday September 10, 2015 @12:18AM (#10196124)
Um... your link doesn't refute parent. Passbook in 2012 was just an endpoint for things like boarding passes, tickets, and gift cards you bought elsewhere.

From related link [1]:

> There's no NFC in the new iPhone, but you'll be able to use your screen as a scannable gift card/plane ticket/voucher/etc. with Passbook, which creates a virtual bundle of all those annoying cards you cram into your wallet. Here's an ideal little scenario for you: a free cup of coffee at Starbucks, because you've got a $25 credit built right into your phone. Hand it to the cashier, beep, coffee, slurp, bye.

If you think this somehow stymied NFC... thats an incredible stretch. Before Apple was it the gift card mafia stopping NFC? Were merchants going to just throw away their perfectly usable POS machines... because technology?

[1] http://gizmodo.com/5944514/all-the-best-new-features-of-ios-...

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by bduerst on Thursday September 10, 2015 @12:28AM (#10196150)
Yes it does and you're splitting hairs. Passbook was Apple's mobile payment response to NFC, and why they didn't adopt NFC in iPhones. They were trying to build an app ecosystem using credits for their mobile payments, and it didn't work so years later we see them catch up with Pay.

The entire context of this discussion was how Apple killed NFC adoption in 2012 by not supporting NFC and splitting the market with their own walled-garden solution. Even your quote shows the surprise on Gizmodo's part that they released some gift card substitute...

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by npunt on Thursday September 10, 2015 @02:37AM (#10196405)
It only seems like I'm splitting hairs because you're making huge leaps that aren't supported by logic or evidence and sound vaguely conspiratorial.

Lets say Apple had stuck NFC in an iPhone 4S. What then? Mobile payments is not a faucet you just turn on. They'd have to convince the entire market - retailers, banks, and credit card companies alike - that they needed to incur tens of million dollars of infrastructure changes and possibly more with fraud in order to... well, what exactly do they get? They'd move from something that people were used to (credit/debit cards) that had clear risk profiles to something unknown with little evidence of consumers willingness to adopt and no added benefit to retailers or banks.

You might respond - its a better user experience! Banks don't give a shit about user experience, thats why they close at 4pm. Retailers don't either, thats why they'd buy POS machines with crap UIs and never replace them even when the digitizer could barely create a signature.

Banks and credit card companies care about risk, and retailers care about keeping costs down and seeing clear benefit in the form of evidence of consumer interest before adopting. Banks and credit card companies are also powerful, quite conservative, and are middle-men that do not necessarily have users interests at heart. Nobody in this industry turns on a dime (heh). Knowing this, Apple chose to wait for the steady trickle of POS machine replacements in the coming POS transition that would follow from Visa's EMV migration announced in 2011 [1], focus on risk-reduction and gaining leverage with credit card companies and banks through TouchID, and launch Passbook as a proof of concept both to train users and show retailers that people want to use their phones. Passbook wasn't an mobile payments competitor, it was a progenitor. It sidestepped major gaps in infrastructure, and it was placed in the second or third tier of iOS features due to its limited usefulness.

Passbook seems to be what you're hung up on. Here's a question - if Apple is so amazeballs that it could have moved the market in 2012, why then are there still retailers and banks that are slow on the Apple Pay uptake? Is it because Google and the coalition of second tier nobodys is missing? No, its because banks and retailers generally don't give a shit about user experience, manage their infrastructure at their own pace, and have all sorts of issues and internal politics that affect their decision making about _anything_.

You keep saying the same thing and haven't provided nearly enough evidence to support the leaps you're making that Apple somehow killed the beautiful 'open' fairyland that would have been NFC in 2012. There was no NFC market in 2012 to split, just bumbling attempts that misread how to make headway in the market, and a handful of Android phones with the hardware just so they could say 'first!' I'd love to see evidence to the contrary.

[1] http://www.emv-connection.com/emv-migration-driven-by-paymen...

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by bduerst on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @12:03AM (#10224605)
You've created a string of hypotheticals and argued them down like they're straw men. I kind of like the one you created about where I would say something about "user experience", because it's fluffy and mocking (on your part) at the same time. Bravo.

I had said that Apple stalled NFC development by not releasing it in 2014. Are you saying that NFC market adoption would have been the same, if Apple had released NFC in 2012?

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by thrownaway2424 on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @07:41PM (#10195365)
They were _possible_ in 2012 but getting everyone on board is difficult. Google included NFC on the Nexus S in 2010. The Nexus S was an atrocious piece of junk compared to its contemporary, the iPhone 4. NFC did nothing to make using the Nexus S more pleasurable. Android beam? Nobody used that. Google did not release the NFC-capable Wallet app until 2011, and at that time the integration between the app, the phone (still the Nexus S) and the payment terminals was ghastly. Nobody used it because it was much slower than paying by any other way and half the time it didn't work. The 2011 Galaxy Nexus didn't make things any better. The NFC antenna was attached to the flexible battery cover and the spring-loaded contacts didn't really work. Google was still pushing Wallet but the merchants didn't care because they weren't getting a better price on transaction clearance and close to nobody had the hardware.

NFC was a complete basket case, and still remains that way except for Apple.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by bduerst on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @07:51PM (#10195402)
What you just described is exactly how Apple killed NFC adoption.

The lack of NFC, or even announcing plans for NFC, from Apple made it very difficult to develop anything useful for NFC. Without universal market share and with an uncertain future, NFC was avoided by many hardware developers who would have built anything useful.

June 2012 was the hinging point because it was when NFC payments were just picking up steam, but Apple elected to try to build their own walled-garden payments system using Passbook and bar codes.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by etchalon on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @09:46PM (#10195759)
What are you talking about? Passbook was never a payment system, it just had gift cards. Passbook isn't a payment system NOW. Apple Pay is, Passbook is just the app that shows users their credit cards.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by bduerst on Thursday September 10, 2015 @12:04AM (#10196086)
Right, Passbook was Apple's first play at mobile payments. They were trying to build an app ecosystem that used credits to to make mobile payments. It was Apple's response to NFC which wasn't very good.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by etchalon on Thursday September 10, 2015 @01:15AM (#10196236)
It wasn't a mobile payments play, though. It was a solution to storing things like movie tickets, airline tickets, gift card vouchers, etc. "Payment" was never in its vocabulary.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by ptomato on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @07:39PM (#10195357)
TrustZone/"Secure Enclave" as apple is calling it.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by evanmoran on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @07:37PM (#10195355)
They wouldn't have had fingerprint readers and the deals with credit card companies to make it then. In my view they didn't kill it they saved it by waiting until they could do it well.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by madeofpalk on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @07:32PM (#10195346)
> I dunno - Apple kind of killed NFC adoption by waiting so long to finally include it. They should have had it back in 2012.

Well, they did Apple Pay. NFC is just an implementation detail, and NFC payments is far from dead

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by 72deluxe on Thursday September 10, 2015 @05:36AM (#10197020)
Google added NFC years ago and few added it to their phones - manufacturers have started adding it but then Google doesn't offer Wallet here in the UK and then chucked Wallet in the bin I think, so they REALLY didn't help NFC in my opinion.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by johansch on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @06:01PM (#10194942)
They still haven't included it...
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by IkmoIkmo on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @06:15PM (#10195011)
Well it's there for apple things like Apple Pay. There's no real incentive for them to open it up to developers unless they're controlling the space. i.e. for Apple Pay it's nice, or say to unlock your car, or unlock your home's door with Home Kit, but random NFC thingies? They're not really interested.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by npunt on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @09:49PM (#10195773)
> We see less and less such ideas from Apple.

Disagree. This is a really commonly held viewpoint that I think is the product of our fast news cycles, and I don't think it approaches truth for another several years.

You are totally right that iPod and iPhone were not the first. While these were cool products when they came out, I think what's often lost is that it was only in the years of incremental improvements that defined how important these products were.

Tons of use cases are being unlocked in health, education, home automation, transportation, payments, enterprise, etc that these markets have been waiting for and wanting and are truly transformative. They're just not talked about as much, or hit that level of 'omg' for people who aren't dealing with those use cases, but they're real. The less sexy incremental stuff is amazing, and in fact, way more interesting because so few companies get the details right.

Just like you're saying about not being first, most blow-your-mind ideas that will come out in the next 10 years are probably already thought of, prototyped, or launched in some highly crippled form to an extremely limited audience. Two amazing things we can assume are in the pipeline are:

1. Driverless car, which will fundamentally change our transportation infrastructure.

2. Eye tracking and face tracking, which unlock new interaction paradigms that are even more natural and seamless. See the recent Faceshift acquisition [1] for evidence.

These are going to be awesome! But they'll take time to perfect.

I'm not sure what qualifies as innovations for you. I'll admit I'm not blown away by today's stuff, it is S-cycle after all, but I am impressed by the way they've implemented 3D touch. Its the first force touch implementation (vs watch and macbook) that I really like because it looks incredibly intuitive and everyday useful - like something that I'll wonder how I lived without.

Well anyway, I think we'd probably agree about a lot things, but I'd be curious as to what big innovation you've got in mind that's missing. Cheers.

[1] http://www.macrumors.com/2015/09/04/faceshift-motion-capture...

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by beedogs on Thursday September 10, 2015 @02:09AM (#10196329)
Apple's not going to release a driverless car. Where are people coming up with this crap?
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by npunt on Thursday September 10, 2015 @03:12AM (#10196508)
I guess that test track for driverless cars that they've been in talks with [1], and all those auto executives and autonomous vehicle engineers they're hiring are going to work on something else?

Just because they've been a computer company thus far doesn't mean it'll always be that way. They're the largest company on earth with over $100B in the bank and incredible consumer goodwill looking for any space with large profit margin potential where they can differentiate with good user experience.

[1] http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/aug/14/apple-self...

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by rdancer on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @08:00PM (#10195432)
oh come on, apple watch?!