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Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by giovannibajo1 on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @06:14PM (#10195005)
That's because they are not a OEM that throws hardware together trying to differentiate, no matter what the software using it will be like. Apple added NFC the day they had the software and the service ready, with all the intricacies in making a secure and private payment system, that works offline, is as fast or faster than swiping a card with no passwords to type, and that makes them make money but without charging more neither the users neither the merchant, and is interoperable with existing credit cards and banks (including the per-bank customized provisioning process).

Putting everything together is several order of magnitude harder than adding a part number to a BOM years before the ecosystem is ready to use it appropriately. They had to get there feature by feature, one at a time. Touch ID was a stepping stone for instance, and that's a whole engineering and design task by itself. It's a multi-year evolution to get to the point of adding a service that incidentally happens to use NFC as one of the many involved technologies. So, no, they did not "add NFC" without Apple Pay.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by sigmar on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @06:53PM (#10195191)
>Apple added NFC the day they had the software and the service ready, with all the intricacies in making a secure and private payment system, that works offline, is as fast or faster than swiping a card with no passwords to type...

What specific changes have made it possible for NFC to work in this way? All those things you listed seem possible in 2012.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by npunt on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @07:47PM (#10195386)
Market changes - POS credit card machines were scheduled to be phased out in favor of chips and NFC by EOY2015 [1].

Apple Pay didn't come out of the blue. The impending POS infrastructure change created the opportunity to launch a better payments user experience in the 2014-2015 timeframe. Apple knew this, and developed/acquired/refined a better security method (touchID + tokenization) and corresponding user experience to negotiate on favorable terms with banks and merchants, which sealed the deal for many and created momentum toward getting stragglers onboard and reaching broad market penetration.

Just adding an NFC chip and calling it a day changes nothing. Few markets are penetrated by hardware - or even hardware and software - alone.

[1] http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2014/02/06/octob...

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by bduerst on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @08:12PM (#10195470)
That's not quite right. That article is about chip & pin only, and not about NFC. Apple made the business decision to build their own payments system and lock merchants in using Passbook, rather than use NFC, which is more open.

When it comes to market adoption of hardware, typically the market leader gets picked up for adoption. By forcing their own version of mobile payments (passbook) and not allowing NFC, the market was split and NFC adoption stymied.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by spiralpolitik on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @08:59PM (#10195607)
That's not quite right either.

Apple Pay does not require Apple-specific contactless payment terminals and will work with Visa's PayWave, MasterCard's PayPass, and American Express's ExpressPay terminals.

So merchants are not "locked in" to passbook.

The reason for Apple Pay success is that they worked with the companies in question so that the infrastructure was already in place when the phone was launched. I was in the UK the week of the Apple Pay launch there and the same terminals that 3 months prior were accepting my contactless card were now accepting my iPhone.

In other words it just worked.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by bduerst on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @11:58PM (#10196080)
None of that was true in 2012 when Apple released Passbook. [1]

The only reason Apple has support for those now in 2015 is because merchants weren't falling for the walled-garden ploy. Apple has finally caught up with other forms of payment, which is why Apple was a major staller for NFC technology adoption.

[1] http://gizmodo.com/5944863/apple-reveals-full-line-up-of-pas...

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by npunt on Thursday September 10, 2015 @12:18AM (#10196124)
Um... your link doesn't refute parent. Passbook in 2012 was just an endpoint for things like boarding passes, tickets, and gift cards you bought elsewhere.

From related link [1]:

> There's no NFC in the new iPhone, but you'll be able to use your screen as a scannable gift card/plane ticket/voucher/etc. with Passbook, which creates a virtual bundle of all those annoying cards you cram into your wallet. Here's an ideal little scenario for you: a free cup of coffee at Starbucks, because you've got a $25 credit built right into your phone. Hand it to the cashier, beep, coffee, slurp, bye.

If you think this somehow stymied NFC... thats an incredible stretch. Before Apple was it the gift card mafia stopping NFC? Were merchants going to just throw away their perfectly usable POS machines... because technology?

[1] http://gizmodo.com/5944514/all-the-best-new-features-of-ios-...

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by bduerst on Thursday September 10, 2015 @12:28AM (#10196150)
Yes it does and you're splitting hairs. Passbook was Apple's mobile payment response to NFC, and why they didn't adopt NFC in iPhones. They were trying to build an app ecosystem using credits for their mobile payments, and it didn't work so years later we see them catch up with Pay.

The entire context of this discussion was how Apple killed NFC adoption in 2012 by not supporting NFC and splitting the market with their own walled-garden solution. Even your quote shows the surprise on Gizmodo's part that they released some gift card substitute...

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by npunt on Thursday September 10, 2015 @02:37AM (#10196405)
It only seems like I'm splitting hairs because you're making huge leaps that aren't supported by logic or evidence and sound vaguely conspiratorial.

Lets say Apple had stuck NFC in an iPhone 4S. What then? Mobile payments is not a faucet you just turn on. They'd have to convince the entire market - retailers, banks, and credit card companies alike - that they needed to incur tens of million dollars of infrastructure changes and possibly more with fraud in order to... well, what exactly do they get? They'd move from something that people were used to (credit/debit cards) that had clear risk profiles to something unknown with little evidence of consumers willingness to adopt and no added benefit to retailers or banks.

You might respond - its a better user experience! Banks don't give a shit about user experience, thats why they close at 4pm. Retailers don't either, thats why they'd buy POS machines with crap UIs and never replace them even when the digitizer could barely create a signature.

Banks and credit card companies care about risk, and retailers care about keeping costs down and seeing clear benefit in the form of evidence of consumer interest before adopting. Banks and credit card companies are also powerful, quite conservative, and are middle-men that do not necessarily have users interests at heart. Nobody in this industry turns on a dime (heh). Knowing this, Apple chose to wait for the steady trickle of POS machine replacements in the coming POS transition that would follow from Visa's EMV migration announced in 2011 [1], focus on risk-reduction and gaining leverage with credit card companies and banks through TouchID, and launch Passbook as a proof of concept both to train users and show retailers that people want to use their phones. Passbook wasn't an mobile payments competitor, it was a progenitor. It sidestepped major gaps in infrastructure, and it was placed in the second or third tier of iOS features due to its limited usefulness.

Passbook seems to be what you're hung up on. Here's a question - if Apple is so amazeballs that it could have moved the market in 2012, why then are there still retailers and banks that are slow on the Apple Pay uptake? Is it because Google and the coalition of second tier nobodys is missing? No, its because banks and retailers generally don't give a shit about user experience, manage their infrastructure at their own pace, and have all sorts of issues and internal politics that affect their decision making about _anything_.

You keep saying the same thing and haven't provided nearly enough evidence to support the leaps you're making that Apple somehow killed the beautiful 'open' fairyland that would have been NFC in 2012. There was no NFC market in 2012 to split, just bumbling attempts that misread how to make headway in the market, and a handful of Android phones with the hardware just so they could say 'first!' I'd love to see evidence to the contrary.

[1] http://www.emv-connection.com/emv-migration-driven-by-paymen...

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by bduerst on Wednesday September 16, 2015 @12:03AM (#10224605)
You've created a string of hypotheticals and argued them down like they're straw men. I kind of like the one you created about where I would say something about "user experience", because it's fluffy and mocking (on your part) at the same time. Bravo.

I had said that Apple stalled NFC development by not releasing it in 2014. Are you saying that NFC market adoption would have been the same, if Apple had released NFC in 2012?

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by thrownaway2424 on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @07:41PM (#10195365)
They were _possible_ in 2012 but getting everyone on board is difficult. Google included NFC on the Nexus S in 2010. The Nexus S was an atrocious piece of junk compared to its contemporary, the iPhone 4. NFC did nothing to make using the Nexus S more pleasurable. Android beam? Nobody used that. Google did not release the NFC-capable Wallet app until 2011, and at that time the integration between the app, the phone (still the Nexus S) and the payment terminals was ghastly. Nobody used it because it was much slower than paying by any other way and half the time it didn't work. The 2011 Galaxy Nexus didn't make things any better. The NFC antenna was attached to the flexible battery cover and the spring-loaded contacts didn't really work. Google was still pushing Wallet but the merchants didn't care because they weren't getting a better price on transaction clearance and close to nobody had the hardware.

NFC was a complete basket case, and still remains that way except for Apple.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by bduerst on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @07:51PM (#10195402)
What you just described is exactly how Apple killed NFC adoption.

The lack of NFC, or even announcing plans for NFC, from Apple made it very difficult to develop anything useful for NFC. Without universal market share and with an uncertain future, NFC was avoided by many hardware developers who would have built anything useful.

June 2012 was the hinging point because it was when NFC payments were just picking up steam, but Apple elected to try to build their own walled-garden payments system using Passbook and bar codes.

Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by etchalon on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @09:46PM (#10195759)
What are you talking about? Passbook was never a payment system, it just had gift cards. Passbook isn't a payment system NOW. Apple Pay is, Passbook is just the app that shows users their credit cards.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by bduerst on Thursday September 10, 2015 @12:04AM (#10196086)
Right, Passbook was Apple's first play at mobile payments. They were trying to build an app ecosystem that used credits to to make mobile payments. It was Apple's response to NFC which wasn't very good.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by etchalon on Thursday September 10, 2015 @01:15AM (#10196236)
It wasn't a mobile payments play, though. It was a solution to storing things like movie tickets, airline tickets, gift card vouchers, etc. "Payment" was never in its vocabulary.
Re:Apple Unveils the iPad Pro by ptomato on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @07:39PM (#10195357)
TrustZone/"Secure Enclave" as apple is calling it.