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Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by knorby on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @02:23PM (#10193155)
In terms of hardware, it isn't the winner for this sort of product. According to reports from a few days ago, the new Apple TV lacks 4K support. The Nvidia Shield runs Android TV, supports 4K (well), and has a pretty reasonable GPU in it. It costs $50 more.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by urda on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @02:29PM (#10193208)
Most homes are not 4K ready and are not anywhere near it at this time. Not really a hurting point in this market.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by cheald on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @02:35PM (#10193266)
I generally agree with you, but Apple's brand image is "luxury"; it does seem odd that what is ostensibly a premium brand would not be targeting premium features.

To put it another way, people who have 4k TVs today - the luxury market - may be put off of the new Apple TV because of its lack of support for their higher-end devices. I'm not sure that's a desirable effect.

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by derefr on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:34PM (#10194379)
There's a difference between "luxury" and (the visual equivalent of) "audiophile." People with money to waste buy Beats headphones, not Sennheisers. Thus why Apple acquired the former instead of the latter. Targeting the high-market buyer doesn't usually imply making your product capable of doing all the latest and greatest bleeding-edge things and beating the competition in a highest-numbers contest, any more than BMW sells its products as race-cars.

Of course, some rich people are racing-car enthusiasts, or audiophiles, or whatever else—and it seems to be more common in the high-end, simply because more of the rich can afford to actually get these things when they want them. But that doesn't mean that the desire is a rich-people thing, or that making something super-duper-high-numbered will make it sell more to the rich.

(Of course, if you give the thing a super-duper-high-numbered price tag, you might inspire some rich people to get it as a Veblen good, which can often look like a desire for the bleeding-edge. You'll frequently find things purchased in this way being underutilized—4K "Veblen TVs" purchased in order to watch 480p Seinfeld re-runs and so on.)

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by rsynnott on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:49PM (#10193987)
They've done this before; the ATV1 didn't support 1080p, at a time when 1080p TVs were starting to exist in the semi-mainstream (though the vast majority of the market was 720p or 1080i still), but there was little content for them.

Ultimately, it'd presumably add cost for a feature useful to few people. Connectivity for 4k also remains a mess; there's HDMI 1.4 (24hz at 4k, so not good enough; the interface presumably runs at 60fps like all other Apple interfaces), and HDMI 2.0, which does support 60hz at 4k, but which is somewhat rare, and has its own problems: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/168-hdmi-q-one-connector-world...

I expect in a couple of years when 4k TVs are more common, content exists for them in significant amounts, and the connector standard (possibly HDMI 2.0a?) is sorted out, they'll support it.

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by JohnBooty on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @02:50PM (#10193384)
I don't know if their brand image can be defined that easily. They sell their stuff at Wal-Mart, after all.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by lobster_johnson on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:49PM (#10193990)
I get where you're going, but I would argue that Apple's brand image isn't luxury at all. Apple sits squarely in the mid-to-high end bracket — anyone who's essentially "middle class" can afford Apple products, and their pricing indicates this. Examples of luxury brands that few people can afford: Hermes bags, Lambourghini cars, Cartier watches.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by t0mbstone on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @05:03PM (#10194583)
You can buy a 50 inch 4K TV right now for only $750. http://www.amazon.com/VIZIO-M50-C1-50-Inch-Ultra-Smart/dp/B0...

That puts 4K squarely in the "middle class" market, if you ask me, and if Apple TV doesn't support it, that means they aren't even targeting middle class. They are basically targeting poor people with an expensive luxury item that can run apps (half of which, like Netflix and Hulu, already run on most users' smart TVs). Their marketing strategy is borderline nonsensical.

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by rsynnott on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @05:11PM (#10194647)
I think it fits squarely into the 'affordable luxury' armed; it's kind of the equivalent of, say, Bosch or Neff for kitchen appliances. A little bit more expensive than the entry level brands, and not really that different, but it looks good, and the oven door feels a bit more solid. Apple's certainly not in the true luxury segment, except arguably with the gold watch.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by makomk on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @06:05PM (#10194962)
Especially since it's not that expensive a feature anymore. There's actually a $15 Pi-like ARM board called the Orange Pi PC that does 4k, because apparently ARM media SoCs with 4k support are that cheap that you can put one in a bargain-basement board that's not even aimed at media applications. Admittedly it's restricted to 30 FPS at 4k, but still, I'm sure Apple could do better if they wanted to.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by aaronbrethorst on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @02:43PM (#10193337)

    Apple's brand image is "luxury"
That's their image, but supporting 4k would probably add a few bucks to the cost of the Apple TV, which would be unacceptable to Tim Cook. 4k will be included when it's achieved decent market penetration.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by t0mbstone on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:04PM (#10193488)
It's completely unacceptable for the new Apple TV not to support 4K, when both Netflix and Amazon are releasing 4K content now. On top of that, the new iPhones can record in 4K, and the new iPad can edit 4K videos.

You can buy a 50 inch 4K TV nowadays for under $1,000. 4K is going to explode in the next year or two, and if the new Apple TV doesn't support it, I won't be buying it. Period.

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by nsxwolf on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:16PM (#10194240)
What's the point of 4K on a TV again? So you can walk up to it and say "ooooh!", then go sit down and have it look like 1080p?

Is that brief standing-too-close moment worth the massive increase in bandwidth required?

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by t0mbstone on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:54PM (#10194516)
Watch 4K content on a 75 inch screen, then play 1080p content on that same screen. The difference in clarity is huge.

The only reason you can't tell the difference is because you are probably watching 1080p content that is being upscaled.

Watch TRUE 4K content on a 65+ inch television, and it's like looking through window. It's amazing.

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by nsxwolf on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @05:17PM (#10194681)
At what viewing distance, though? I have a 65 inch 1080p set that I sit 12 feet from. Without my glasses, I can't tell the difference between 1080p and 480p at that distance.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by t0mbstone on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @05:38PM (#10194807)
I sit about 10-12 feet away from my TV. It sounds like you need to get your vision checked.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by rsynnott on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:50PM (#10194004)
> 4K is going to explode in the next year or two

At which time they will no doubt support it. Right now it'd be an extra expense of use to very few users, and they'd have to deal with the connectivity problem.

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by a_c_s on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:25PM (#10194307)
People don't buy TV's that often: 5 years after release HD TV penetration was only 3%. It took 15 years to reach 81%.

4K TV's aren't going to "explode", they are going to continue to be a slow trickle.

http://www.rethinkresearch.biz/articles/15-years-after-launc...

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by elif on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:48PM (#10193978)
I agree. I paid $600 for my 52 inch 4K... and it's not a cheap Chinese one, it's a samsung smart tv with native streaming, voice command, and multi-axis remote..

They are going to miss the boat if 4k explodes this black friday.

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by tdkl on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:26PM (#10194313)
The whole reason the 4K bandwagon exist is to push people to replace their whole media hardware stack again. They tried with 3D, but that flopped, so apparently more pixels are needed, so you can see the media with more clarity from the sofa (where there's basically no difference because of the distance).

Similar as pushing 2k/4k screens to mobile phones - marketing and sales.

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by t0mbstone on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:53PM (#10194503)
I have 20/30 vision (slightly blurry), and I can ABSOLUTELY tell the difference between normal HD and Ultra HD, from 10 feet away. Anyone who can't is either partially blind, or is lying.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by tdkl on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @05:04PM (#10194591)
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by rsynnott on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @05:17PM (#10194675)
I assume you're using a very big TV. I'm currently looking at a ~38" TV from about 10 feet away, and can't see the pixels on the 720p content from my 2010 AppleTV.

>60" TVs are a thing, but they're a serious niche, especially outside the U.S., where homes tend to be smaller. Apple would simply be adding cost to work for the tiny amount of the market who both want a really huge TV, and happen to have gotten a 4k one, and they'd probably have to release a hardware revision or so anyway in a year or so she the connectivity issues around 4k resolve themselves.

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by ians on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:53PM (#10194507)
And if 4k does explode in a year or two couldn't Apple do a hardware update for the AppleTV in that time?
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by t0mbstone on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:58PM (#10194535)
Sure, which would mean that users would have to spend ANOTHER $200 for the version of the Apple TV that supported 4k.

I mean, aren't they are supposed to be releasing cutting edge technology here? Why are they releasing a set top Apple TV that can't even display the content that the new iPhone and iPad can CREATE and edit?

I want to be able to record 4K videos on my iPhone, then turn around and play them on my 4K TV, without having to leave the Apple ecosystem.

It is a huge, glaring flaw in their ecosystem if I can't do that.

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by oldmanjay on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @05:24PM (#10194720)
You say this like Apple is somehow precluded from upgrading the hardware when 4K TVs hit a market penetration that matters.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by t0mbstone on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @05:38PM (#10194805)
And make me pay another $200 for functionality that the damn thing should have had initially?
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by oldmanjay on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @05:41PM (#10194824)
Well, no one can make you buy an Apple TV that doesn't have the features you want, so I feel like maybe you look at the world a little differently than it actually works. Given that, there's not much more I have to contribute.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by knorby on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @02:42PM (#10193327)
I can't argue with that, but the Apple TV will hit obsolescence much quicker, particularly as 4K becomes more prevalent. I just find it odd that Apple totally excludes the higher end of the market...Android TV has a range of options at least.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by georgerobinson on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:35PM (#10194387)
This is a genuine question. How many households do you suppose have an Internet connection that can support 4K? I don't know the answer for the USA, but I can see from a Ofcom report published at the start of the year, about 68% of households in the UK would not be able to stream 4K on Netflix due to insufficient broadband speed. Just 1/3 of households have connections with 30Mb/s or more (http://media.ofcom.org.uk/news/2015/broadband-speeds-novembe...).

I'm not saying this a valid excuse for omitting 4K support. However, for the most part I don't think the infrastructure is really there for the wider population. I live out in the sticks and barely get 3Mbps.

Perhaps we might see 4K come to the Apple TV next year either as a software upgrade on current hardware or with better GPU/CPU to support it.

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by martinald on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:46PM (#10194454)
30% may subscribe but nearly 90% (in England) have it available to them: http://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local/?area=eng

Probably a chicken and egg problem, why upgrade to fibre many people will think when you have no need for it apart from slightly faster large file downloads

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by georgerobinson on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:51PM (#10194494)
Thanks for the link! If 94% of the population can subscribe to BT's FTTC service and get at least 25Mbps then the state of broadband in the UK is much better than I had previously thought.

That said, 25Mb/s is at the lower end of the FTTC service. I can imagine a lot of households will max out at around 40Mbps due to distance from the cabinet and cross-talk on busy lines (though vectoring should help somewhat). I would like to see what G.FAST can deliver but unshielded copper phone lines can only take you so far.

Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by martinald on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @05:12PM (#10194649)
Don't forget that ~50% can get up to 300mbit/sec (by the end of the year) with Virgin Media. And probably 2-3% more can get direct FTTP with Hyperoptic, BT or Sky/TalkTalk or other altnets.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by chambo622 on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @02:25PM (#10193176)
The Shield is an amazingly good device but it will never sell at anything near the rate of Apple TV. It's targeted toward gamers and enthusiasts, many of whom already have a console already.
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by dharma1 on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @02:48PM (#10193375)
Hey, need to leave something for next year's version ;)
Re:Apple Unveils a More Powerful Apple TV by xngzng on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:57PM (#10194075)
I guess A8 chip can not handle 4k streaming or to the good user experience level Apple like. Apple TV uses older chip. It appears A9 in iPhone 6S can handle 4K thus you will see 4K support in next model. Anyway 4K content is not mainstream yet.