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Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by madaxe_again on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @11:45AM (#10192123)
Capital is not what most people conceive of it to be. Capital is commonly (and correctly) viewed as a "store of wealth", or as "the crystallisation of labour-time" - but capital comes in different flavours, and when you deal with capital in the form of goods which provide an incremental benefit to the user, what you have is indeed capital, but when you deal with money... it's up to you whether it's capital or not.

Often, people confuse money with capital. Money is an exchange mechanism which facilitates the transfer of value between parties through a common unit of exchange. Money can be viewed as a subset of capital (i.e. as a sedentary store of value), or it can be viewed as the destruction of the benefits of labour, as it converts an active instrument (i.e. the work I am doing, or the goods I have produced) into a sedentary instrument which provides no incremental benefit, unless it is spent.

So - how this relates to the article - capitalism is a system which currently optimises for money. When you take a step back and consider that by converting labour and value into money, you are effectively freezing the benefit of that labour away, accruing money as an end of its own ceases to make sense, as much of this value ends up lying in the ledgers of corporates, governments, or wealthy individuals, doing nothing for anybody other than perhaps dealing with some of the more fragile elements of human psychology (security).

We have let a means become the end, and have forgotten that the Purpose of all of this is to promote human happiness - I mean, what other possible Purpose can there be?

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by bko on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:31PM (#10192379)
Some would disagree that the purpose of existence is to promote happiness.

Robert Nozick offered this thought experiment to which I would not opt to maximize happiness:

> Nozick asks us to imagine a machine that could give us whatever desirable or pleasurable experiences we could want. Psychologists have figured out a way to stimulate a person's brain to induce pleasurable experiences that the subject could not distinguish from those he would have apart from the machine. He then asks, if given the choice, would we prefer the machine to real life? [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_machine

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by Retra on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @01:04PM (#10192608)
The problem here is that you've created a scenario that talks about a single human brain, but "maximizing human happiness" doesn't refer to any single person's brain. It refers the state of our entire social environment as viewed through the aggregate of individual experience.

And you're probably vastly underestimating the complexity and comprehensiveness demanded of such a machine.

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by bko on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:52PM (#10194025)
Would I like to impose the experience machine to all of humanity or at least all those that I love?

My answer doesn't change. Actually, I would go to great lengths to prevent imposing such a fate on humanity.

I may be naive in thinking this but human emotions and euphoria can probably be boiled down to a chemical reaction in our brain such that brain activity of someone experiencing something pleasurable in "real life" and that of someone taking a substance simulating these same feelings would be indistinguishable.

However, I believe there is so much more to existence than our own perception even though I am not spiritual at all.

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by Retra on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @05:48PM (#10194858)
Again, I don't think you are aware of what "indistinguishable from reality" actually entails. The capabilities are so extreme there that you'll have essentially created your own universe.

And what do you care if you live in a different universe? You don't even understand this one well enough to know the difference. So you're basically making this decision on the grounds of your own ignorance.

What if this world is a simulation, and the real world is a wonderful and happy place? You don't know the difference, so what business do you have taking a stand on the issue?

>However, I believe there is so much more to existence than our own perception even though I am not spiritual at all.

You don't know what that word means, then.

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by bko on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:50AM (#10198370)
Fair point.

What I had originally thought of as an experience machine was drugs that would produce chemically equivalent reactions as those produced from our experiences.

Spiritual usually has an anthropomorphic meaning which is what I object to:

Defined as "of, relating to, or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things"

Maybe a better way of stating it is that I am not an empiricist that believes that sensory experience is the end-all be-all.

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by Retra on Friday September 11, 2015 @03:46PM (#10205773)
That's a better way of putting it, though what I was really getting at was that, whatever reason you have for believing in the importance non-empirical information, you could employ that same reasoning to believe in anything spiritual as well. If what you believe isn't supported by evidence, then a rational person has no reason to agree to it.

Don't underestimate how easy it is for a human brain to confuse wishful thinking with rational belief. I know what you are talking about -- a sense of objectivity -- but I see no reason to believe it is a valid point of view, rather than a pretense of human desire.

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by rndn on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @01:17PM (#10192682)
I think this response has something to do with the fact that artificial stimulation is often regarded as deceptive in western culture. So the decision is heavily influenced by how people see it being judged by their social environment. You can achieve an interesting twist by asking: Would you hook your brain to a pleasure machine if everybody else agrees to use it too (and of course it wouldn't cause any social or cognitive side-effects, boredom, fatigue etc.)?
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by fweespeech on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @01:20PM (#10192702)
I wonder what Robert Nozick would think of recreational drug use.

That is as close to that "machine" that we have in reality and its pretty clear people are willing to accept/risk the negative impacts and use such drugs.

This being the case, I'm pretty sure, people would use that machine if it was legal and cheap. Similarly, I'm pretty sure at least some of those people would prefer it to real life.

Similarly, the only reason I prefer "real life" is the relationships I built with people. If I had been given the choice, say, 10+ years ago to have such a machine ... I'd prefer it to RL and the effort it took to build the kind of life I want.

So its a philosophical question with answer of "it depends on the person and RL situation they have".

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by bko on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @02:58PM (#10193464)
Of course some unhappy with their lives prefer to live in an alternate reality. I don't mean to suggest everyone would prefer "real life" but that the majority of people don't simply chose to maximize happiness at the expense of other things.

One could argue that the value you get from your "real life" relationships with people are nothing more than a simple chemical reaction taking place in your brain that could also be simulated.

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by pharrington on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:50PM (#10194486)
The internal experience of an individual is totally beyond the point (the stimulation of watching an engaging movie is literally real in your brain!); all the issues about generating happiness for the human species revolve around the sustainability of that happiness. Kindof can't handwave away the social implications of promoting happiness within society. Also the arguments of "we'd rather DOOOOOO something than just EXPERIENCE doing it" obviously either rely on some sort of dualist existence or just straight out say the experience machine isn't as good as advertised.
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by kaffeemitsahne on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:57PM (#10192569)
Why wouldn't you?
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by cylinder on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @01:52PM (#10192910)
Replace drugs with machine and we already have such a thing. However the pleasure from drugs is stigmatized and prohibited, and the addiction to the pleasure machine is seen as life destroying.
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by sangnoir on Thursday September 10, 2015 @05:40AM (#10197040)
IMO - it's not the pleasure itself that is stigmatized, but the side-effects. Side effects including deteriorating health of the user, as well as the occasional resorting to immoral or even criminal means to feed the habit.

There's also a whole dog-whistle aspect to the 'war on drugs' (e.g. massive differences in sentences on crack vs. cocaine offences)

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by karmakaze on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @01:02PM (#10192599)
A game is more fun without the cheat-code.
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by olewhalehunter on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @02:59PM (#10193469)
You live life with significantly more "cheat codes" than the rest of the world, now what makes you think you aren't already living with "cheat codes" you aren't aware of? Since you could also program your reality to enjoy the benefits of the "cheat codes" without actually being aware of them, then there's a bit of cosmic irony to your statement.
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by karmakaze on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @04:39PM (#10194416)
But what's proposed isn't any cheat-code, it's The cheat-code. I remember playing one of the Dooms once with its god cheat.. for a few minutes.
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by bko on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @01:22PM (#10192713)
Because I believe in a greater purpose in life (in the non-religious sense). But that's just me
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by eli_gottlieb on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @02:48PM (#10193372)
Because I happen to care about things-in-themselves, and I can have a lot of fun and be very happy with things-in-themselves. Experience machines are the kind of thought experiment invented by people who can't conceive of real life being a nice place to live, and thus constantly want to escape into the un-real.
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by AndrewKemendo on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:09PM (#10192268)
>capitalism is a system which currently optimises for money.

If that were the case then cash reserves would be where the bulk of people poured their resources. In fact the majority of non-debt "capital" is held in real-estate and some combination of financial instruments (CD, bonds, common stock etc...).

You are confusing how the assets are valued with what is actually being valued. What I think you are saying though is that capitalism is optimizing for having the highest dollar denominated balance sheet - which could be true, but I think that is a function of the people, not the function of open markets or the asset value function of assigning ownership to capital.

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by gglitch on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:16PM (#10192312)
Out of my depth here, but aren't the real estate and financial instruments being held merely as a generator of more money (except in the rare case that one actually lives on the real estate, I suppose)?
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by msandford on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:24PM (#10192348)
Generally yes, but the yields on real estate are small relative to the notional value.

Further, by necessity most things are held at a notional value and the sum of all these notional values far far outweighs the total sum of all the money people are holding in bank accounts. Now obviously everyone in the world couldn't sell everything and achieve the notional values and put those in bank accounts, because in order for everyone to sell there would have to be buyers, but we can't have buyers because everyone is selling. But if somehow we could, the amount of money in banks would probably go up 100x or so, but definitely at least 10x.

That means that real assets far outweigh money in the economy and so it's kind of strange to think about 'capital' as money rather than as assets. Assets are things which are generally useful in some particular way (a car, a house, a factory, etc) rather than as their potential which is more what money is.

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by AndrewKemendo on Thursday September 10, 2015 @01:16AM (#10196238)
It's a mix, but in general you can look at the risk profile of these assets as a range between "storage" and "return." The left end is more (historically) stable asset classes with lower returns like government bonds and the latter with volatile and high tech startups.

Again though, it's not "money" per se, ie. cash, that they are trying to generate - though in the cases of dividend yielding assets as part of a retirement portfolio that is true - but rather to put their money into an asset that beats inflation with variable levels of security and maintenance, aka Risk. I guess you could say that you always want a higher cash value over time but I think that is a vulgar interpretation of how a market works.

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by dublinben on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:26PM (#10192360)
Real estate, especially in major Western metropolises (London, Paris, New York, etc.) is also seen as a very stable store of value. If you are a newly-minted millionaire capitalist from an unstable developing country, parking your cash in foreign real estate is quite attractive.
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by drabiega on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:23PM (#10192344)
You might think so at first glance, but the telling question is whether you're holding those things to generate money to hold onto or whether you just want that money to buy other things?
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by irln on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:17PM (#10192313)
It depends upon whether capitalism == the current form of managing the money supply (e.g. fractional reserve loans, Federal Reserve's open market operations).
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by jsprogrammer on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:36PM (#10192423)
>Capital is commonly (and correctly) viewed as a "store of wealth", or as "the crystallisation of labour-time"

Sorry, but what? I'm guessing that you don't even really believe this and that you don't even know what those phrases are supposed to mean. Why else would you put them in quotes -- twice?

I can only guess that this is supposed to mean that capital somehow binds up prior effort into a claim on (others?) future effort?

That is a fiction (likely told to you by someone with "capital"). It's a fine theory, but it is only that. There is no physicality to capital in your definition. It is purely a social construct.

A more traditional definition of capital is that it refers to a physical machine which substitutes labor.

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by dredmorbius on Thursday September 10, 2015 @02:09PM (#10199571)
capital somehow binds up prior effort into a claim on (others?) future effort?

Actually, yes. Money is a lien on future production. Or demand rights. That's specifically what debt creates: an obligation to someone else for future efforts if the debtor.

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by jsprogrammer on Thursday September 10, 2015 @07:10PM (#10201124)
Not all money is debt, though most is.

Debt is not a demand on future effort or production. Debt is merely an accounting artifact; it can make no real claims on the physical world.

Many will exert effort in exchange for money, but calling it a lien on future production is incorrect. No one has any obligation to perform effort in exchange for whatever it is that you call money.

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by dredmorbius on Thursday September 10, 2015 @08:01PM (#10201284)
Play with this thought for a while.

No, not all money is debt in the sense that it's loaned into existence. But it does create a general expectation, and quite often a legal obligation, to accept it as payment. That is, any money-denominated debt is fulfilled by a credible offer to pay in cash (unless previously otherwise negotiated).

Even if simply printed into existence, money is a right of demand, that is, if I run a printing press and drop-ship you a pallet-wrapped billion in Benjamins, you've got equal rights to anyone else to bid that money against anyone else on goods or products.

Capital wealth is similar: it's a legal fiction (though an awfully well established one) that by right of claim to some property, the owner thus has other capabilities, including, significantly, collateral for debts, which can be used to provide liquid debts. Hocking a ring at a pawn shop, home equity loan, corporate paper, or the very significant sovereign debt available to holders of petrochemical resource claims or reserve currency authorities

Aside: which is among the reasons why there's much hay made over claims of personal worth, the solvency of reserve currencies, and over whether and to what extent petrochemical reserves might be stranded -- above and beyond merely comparing net worth, these determine access to loans from others. Donald Trump and oil companies / oil-producing nations are notably testy about the first and second, much of the noise eminating from RT (and much echoed through ZeroHedge) are based on concerns over access to capital (Trump, Oil) and in weakening the dollar and through that, the United States' access to credit markets.

Since definitions of what property is are determined by law, precedent, force of arms, etc., you'll also see a lot of resorting to that as well.

But yes: money is ultimately a created fiction, a universally exchangeable good, whose fundamental supply is unlimited, a reality constrained largely by the fact that increasing its supply without restraint does lead to a dimunution in the exchange value of units currently in existence, and all instruments denominated in currency amounts (e.g., debts, bonds, contracts, etc.). Each individual currency unit is a demand on future production, though the increment of that demand is not itself fixed for all time (inflation/deflation).

There's more on this concept in Modern Monetary Theory. My own thoughts are independently conceived, but I'm finding it's quite similar.

Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by madaxe_again on Thursday September 10, 2015 @03:32AM (#10196585)
Dude. Smith (WoN) and Marx (Kapital). Know your sources before shooting your mouth off.
Re:Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer by jsprogrammer on Thursday September 10, 2015 @11:51AM (#10198740)
Read those a long time ago brah. You dispute what I said?