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Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by jbigelow76 on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @05:46PM (#10155995)
So what about an OS vendor that "curates" a particular default browser and destroys a competing browser provider in the process? I seem to remember that happening a few years back.

It's not so much the curating that's the problem, nobody would care if Duck Duck Go did it, the problem is with the regulators that view Google to be the only curator out there.

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by gizmo686 on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @06:06PM (#10156124)
Against whom is Google being anti-competitive with this move. How should we prevent this move from being illegal, without specifying what metrics Google is and is not allowed to use?
Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by x0x0 on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @02:32PM (#10161132)
If google where to just use bounce rate as a ranking measure, that's fine -- if interstitials increase bounce rate, then site owners will have to determine for themselves whether it's worth the price. otoh, deciding to arbitrarily lower the rank because they don't like a particular type of advertising is exactly anti-competitive.

So ranking measures derived from user behavior: great. Ranking measures designed to prioritize features in your browser, or to push people away from apps (that, just by total happenstance, your dominant competitor does better than you, and which threaten to undercut your dominance in search/display ads): not fine. Which really is classical antitrust: you can't use your monopoly (search) to juice your other businesses (browser, app store).

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by bduerst on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @02:45PM (#10161203)
Many websites with pop-up ads (Forbes, etc.) display a 2-5s timer countdown to dismiss the ad and view the content, which engages users long enough to stay on the site. This games the bounce rate and would defeat a solution that is base solely on on it.
Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by x0x0 on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @03:01PM (#10161272)
I don't think you understood, or I wasn't clear.

Users will bounce if they don't like ads, with or without countdown timers. Acting based on observed user behavior is great. If they don't like it, they bounce. If they tolerate it, they don't bounce. Over time, users will migrate to less-annoying sites. Ranking sites on observed bounced rates, whether caused by ads, low quality, or what ever else, is awesome and should have no anti-trust implications. That's not what google did.

After all, if these ads really annoyed users in general, that would show up in their behavior, and thus naturally be picked up on by ranking algorithms, no? (They annoy me, but I'm not all users.)

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by pdkl95 on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @07:01PM (#10156387)
As search becomes something that society depends upon, start treating it as a public utility.

> without specifying what metrics Google is and is not allowed to use?

Why not? If society depends on something, we regulate it. There are many different possible degrees of regulation, so this is not a boolean condition, even though painting such situations as a boolean choice between pure laissez-faire and nationalizing an industry (instead of merely regulating).

If you don't like this idea, I suggest that Google (or any other business) should find a way on their own to handle the situation (possibly by making their metrics more available, transparent, and verifiable?), or the choice may eventually be taken out of their hands.

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by jfoster on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @08:25PM (#10156727)
Google would break if it were transparent. I'm frustrated by the status quo; I run a site where users who found it through search contact me to say that it should've been higher in the search results. I think this would only get worse if it were transparent, though. Gaming Google would become predictable and mechanized. The outcome would be ugly.
Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by pdkl95 on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @10:23PM (#10157088)
Fraud doesn't become legal just because someone has a clever idea for SEO. You're scenario only works in a totally unregulated environment. Internet businesses are not magically except from the types of regulation found in every other industry. The entire point of a regulation is to place limits on behaviors that harm society when left on their own.

However, focusing on my suggestion of transparency and verification misses the point. The method by which Google regains (and maintains) the public trust is their problem, and I'm sure that more than one solution exists.

My point is it would probably be in Google's best interest to fix this problem, because waiting too long has consequences. At some point, the people who feel that are treated unfairly by Google - it doesn't matter if they are correct in that belief - will fight back, which has already started in small, preliminary ways.

> The outcome would be ugly.

The outcome would also be ugly in a future where a socially-necessary service is controlled entirely by a single entity. As usual in these situations, the best situation is somewhere in the middle.

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by jfoster on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @11:04PM (#10157196)
Gaming Google isn't fraudulent. It's just behaviour that lies outside of Google's guidelines about content on the web. There's no law that says you can't create hundreds of websites using spun content and dofollow links to a page you want to promote; it's completely legal behaviour, probably won't trick Google anymore, but used to, and works as a good example of how benefiting from breaking Google's guidelines doesn't imply fraud.

To your broader point, I agree that it's reasonable to want Google regulated to some degree, though I do fear regulators will take on that "transparent algorithm" point of view, which will just make search terrible. Governments generally aren't very good at regulating tech businesses.

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by georgemcbay on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @08:38PM (#10156770)
The problem in the Microsoft case was use of near-monopoly in one market (operating systems) to gain unfair advantage in another market (browsers), though even that seems a bit outdated already since the idea of shipping an OS without a browser built-in seems ludicrous today.

In any case, that concept of using monopoly power in one market to bolster power in another doesn't really apply here with Google.

I share a lot of the unease many people have with the amount of power Google has been able to amass as the de factor curator of the Internet, but I'm also somewhat amazed they are in the position they are in and have been as (mostly) benevolent as they have been. I suspect it is actually pretty hard work just to remain somewhat close to neutral when you are sitting on that much power.

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by kuschku on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @11:11PM (#10157223)
This applies directly to Google.

Remember them pushing Chrome on you? having ads directly on Google.com? To this day forcing you to use Chrome for Hangouts? And so on?

Do you seriously think Chrome would have caught on if it weren’t for this push of advertisements?

This is direct abuse of near-monopoly in one market (search engines) to gain unfair advantage in another market (browsers).

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by plonh on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @12:21AM (#10157409)
Chrome originally caught in for the same reason Firefox: when it came out it was the best browser by far. People forget how bad IE used to be and later how bad Firefox got.
Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by kuschku on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @12:22AM (#10157412)
Are you so sure about that? Because no one knew about it until Google started this massive ad campaign, where for weeks literally every single ad on the web was "INSTALL CHROME NOW".
Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by bduerst on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @02:09AM (#10157676)
Chrome didn't catch on at first - they had to advertise the shit out of it on TV because nobody knew what a browser was.

Seriously, look up "Dear Sophie" to see how many awards it won. Google doesn't do TV, so that's not a monopoly.

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by kuschku on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @09:52AM (#10159102)
Their TV ads were mostly ignored, but most people ended up accidentally clicking one of the Chrome ads, and then actually tried it out. There were days where every single YouTube preroll ad was for Chrome, every side ad was for chrome, every ad in the bottom of the video was for Chrome, every single ad served by AdWords was for Chrome, on Google.com were ads for Chrome in the top right with an animated arrow, there were ads for Chrome below and above the search box, etc.

It was horrible, and I really believe this was unfair competition. Especially as people using AdSense complained that they got paid next to nothing or nothing for people viewing and clicking Chrome ads.

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by bduerst on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @02:38PM (#10161165)
And you know this how?

When they launched chrome, the browser wars had long since been won. Everyone who knew what a browser was had installed firefox, and everyone else thought IE was the internet. Just because you ignored the ads doesn't mean the general public did. It sounds like you're being biased.

If you're going to attribute Chrome's growth to "accidental clicks on ad manipulation" instead of the massive awareness campaign, you're going to need to provide proof.

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by kuschku on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @05:15PM (#10161929)
Well, in Germany Firefox is still far larger than Chrome. Chrome eats up the share of IE, but can’t touch FF.
Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by bduerst on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @05:53PM (#10162147)
How does that equate to ad auction abuse?
Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by kuschku on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @06:07PM (#10162215)
Sorry, I might have misunderstood your comment.

Several people on this page provided statistics and reports how they got nothing or next to nothing when Google replaced all ads in the AdWords network with their Chrome ads.

As I’m also not interested enough in the topic to research sources just to change your opinion, I don’t care if you’ll downvote me again.

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by bduerst on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @08:01PM (#10162683)
I checked this page and nobody here links to anything supporting ad auction abuse as you say.

Are you sure you understand what you're talking about?

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by kuschku on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @08:26PM (#10162746)
I meant "several people on HN mentioned in a post when Chrome was introduced", not "several people in this HN thread". Sorr :/
Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by bduerst on Thursday September 03, 2015 @09:37PM (#10168422)
>Several people on this page

That's not what you meant.

Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by kuschku on Friday September 04, 2015 @09:34AM (#10170257)
Yes, that’s exactly what I meant. This page == Hacker News. If I meant this thread, I’d have seat this thread.
Re:Google Will Soon Start Punishing Mobile Sites that Use An... by TazeTSchnitzel on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @09:06PM (#10156875)
> since the idea of shipping an OS without a browser built-in seems ludicrous today.

Windows 7 in Europe.