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Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by _delirium on Friday July 24, 2015 @04:09PM (#9944834)
That difference is partly due to different things being valued: Walmart's valuation is primarily its current business, while Amazon's valuation is primarily its future growth prospects. That future growth is valued in the market cap today, but its actual materialization will only take place in the future, so doesn't show up on the payroll today. If Amazon does actually succeed in growing to Wal-Mart levels of sales, it will end up with a lot more employees than it currently has, though quite possibly still fewer than Wal-Mart.
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by gitah on Friday July 24, 2015 @06:14PM (#9945532)
sales/employee ratios:

Amazon: 670k Walmart: 220k

Assuming the ratio stays the same, when Amazon gets to Walmart level sales, it will need about 700k employees which is still 1/3 of Walmart's current employee count.

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by fragsworth on Friday July 24, 2015 @08:37PM (#9946066)
It is important to consider that delivery companies account for the bulk of the people employed as a result of Amazon, though not employed directly by Amazon.

Self-driving vehicles will probably replace the need for most of these employees, however.

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by Forbo on Friday July 24, 2015 @09:32PM (#9946211)
How so? Sure, a few drivers would be replaced. However, the last-mile driver is also taking care of the doorstep delivery. Even if you replace the driver, someone needs to finish the delivery/get signature/whatever.
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by rasz_pl on Friday July 24, 2015 @10:23PM (#9946307)
Self-pickup/Drop-off wall of drop boxes ... mounted on a self driving truck that sends you sms 10 minutes before showing up, or better yet lets you schedule your own time and place.

Shit, with retarded patent system in US someone is already patenting this as you read my post.

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by cellis on Saturday July 25, 2015 @12:21AM (#9946535)
And if that happens, point to this as prior art!
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by nso95 on Sunday July 26, 2015 @07:08AM (#9950735)
You could also have a drone on the truck that picks up the package and drops it on the doorstep
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by moe on Saturday July 25, 2015 @11:50AM (#9947908)
Sure, a few drivers would be replaced. However, the last-mile driver is also taking care of the doorstep delivery.

I agree that the last-mile driver will stick around for a bit longer, but their number is relatively small.

For example: UPS owns 100k vehicles, worldwide[1].

In comparison, over 3 million people are employed by the transportation industry in the US alone[2].

[1] http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/about/facts/worldwide.html

[2] http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_201.htm

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by dylanjermiah on Friday July 24, 2015 @09:49PM (#9946234)
By the time SDC are here drones should be prevalent, which will take care of the last mile.
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by analognoise on Friday July 24, 2015 @10:24PM (#9946308)
Sure, as soon as they solve the battery problem.
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by throwaway342526 on Friday July 24, 2015 @11:47PM (#9946466)
There is no battery problem for truck-to-door. The truck charges between deliveries and spare swap-in packs pick up any slack if the duty cycle is too high.
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by aswanson on Friday July 24, 2015 @11:40PM (#9946456)
It doesn't take a lot of battery power to fly a mile.
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by jacquesm on Saturday July 25, 2015 @06:04AM (#9947150)
Depends on the weight of your package.
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by andyidsinga on Friday July 24, 2015 @11:20PM (#9946419)
in this use case- truck to door, alternatives like compressed air might work ..especially if they can recharge in the truck
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by jon-wood on Saturday July 25, 2015 @02:59AM (#9946812)
I'm trying to think what you'd use compressed air for here, and the only thing I'm coming up with is some sort of parcel cannon, which while awesome does seem to have a few issues.

What am I missing?

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by kalleboo on Saturday July 25, 2015 @05:48AM (#9947129)
To power drones, presumably. You have the example of Tata's compressed-air car prototype http://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/cars-runn...

Although I suspect a compressed air tank with enough capacity would be way too heavy for a drone to carry.

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by andyidsinga on Saturday July 25, 2015 @02:12PM (#9948427)
yes - that's the type of thing I'm talking about. I've heard of taxi's running on compressed air motors in dense urban environments ..maybe NYC?.

The power to weight ratio is the key issue. Also -- noise could be an issue too -- want to have quiet deliveries.

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by andyidsinga on Saturday July 25, 2015 @02:09PM (#9948416)
although the parcel cannon is a fantastic idea! ..not to different from how my paper is thrown at my house at 4am today :)

I'm thinking parcel cannon + small airbag bumpers and maybe a little parachute to slow decent at exactly the right time :)

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by andyidsinga on Saturday July 25, 2015 @02:08PM (#9948411)
compressed air motor (edit>) and tank instead of electric motor and batteries.
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by blazespin on Saturday July 25, 2015 @12:21AM (#9946536)
This. What people don't reLize is that 1/4 to 1/2 of amazonz biz is delivery. Which is why they are so focused on replacing fedex/ups/etc. Amazon fresh is their Trojan horse.
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by brianobush on Friday July 24, 2015 @07:34PM (#9945867)
Amazon is betting on technology to allow it to scale so that it won't need the meet that ratio.
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by crabasa on Friday July 24, 2015 @04:14PM (#9944875)
> That difference is partly due to different things being valued

This is misleading. All valuations are based on the discounted value of future cash flows. There are three variables at work here: today's cash flows, the growth rate of these cash flows and the discount rate. The market is simply saying that Amazon's growth prospects outweigh it relatively smaller size.

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by bduerst on Friday July 24, 2015 @06:25PM (#9945589)
For a MnA? Yeah.

For equity market cap value that the article and previous person are talking about? No.

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by chronic40 on Friday July 24, 2015 @04:26PM (#9944957)
Different things are being valued. You simply pointed out they are using the same metric.
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by crabasa on Friday July 24, 2015 @04:32PM (#9944995)
There is only one thing being valued by a rational investor: net present value of future cash flows.

Edit:

The only point I'm trying to make is that an investor, when they exchange money for a stock, is placing a bet on a single outcome: future cash flows. Of course there are plenty of ways to get those cash flows, but I find that most people get caught up in details like employee headcount and fail to grasp the single most important factor: compound growth.

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by _delirium on Friday July 24, 2015 @04:37PM (#9945020)
Sure, but there are many ways to get future cash flows. A significant difference in the valuation of the two companies is that with Wal-mart, the expectation of future cash flows (and therefore present value) comes primarily from its present size, the cash flows that brings, and its expected ability to continue bringing in such flows. Whereas with Amazon, which has much lower current market share and cash flow, the market is "saying that Amazon's growth prospects outweigh it relatively smaller size". Hence the proportion of expected future cash flows that investors expect to come in the form of future growth is significantly higher with Amazon than with Wal-Mart. Therefore you would expect Amazon to have a lower current size and current headcount per unit present valuation, even if there were no differences in productivity.

What I was criticizing was just using the ratio of present market cap and present headcount as a meaningful metric, when comparing companies with very different growth expectations. That effectively becomes a restatement of the different growth expectations: Amazon has the same market cap as Wal-Mart but its present size is smaller in almost any way you could count present size (sales, headcount, etc.).

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by parasubvert on Friday July 24, 2015 @04:52PM (#9945105)
Arguably the majority of investment is not rational, but speculative.
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by kjhughes on Friday July 24, 2015 @05:22PM (#9945277)
Speculative is not the opposite of rational. Speculation can be entirely rational.

Perhaps you meant 'emotional' or 'irrational' rather than 'speculative'.

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by parasubvert on Friday July 24, 2015 @06:12PM (#9945519)
I agree.

What I meant was that much investment is speculative, and that speculative investing is not solely, or even mostly, based on a purely rational model e.g. one that is based on a prediction of future cash flows.

It is usually based on betting on the the future price of the asset, independent of fundamentals. Some of these approaches are more justifiable than others: market momentum, qualatiative prediction of the company's valuation trajectory, trendy but questionable financial metrics, sophist technical analysis etc.

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by HSO on Friday July 24, 2015 @06:31PM (#9945630)
> There is only one thing being valued by a rational investor: net present value of future cash flows.

This only holds under the assumption of rational expectations.

Under the more reasonable assumption of heterogeneous expectations, it becomes necessary to think about what the market on average expects (or, possibly, other functionals of the agent population if the assumption of competitive markets is violated); the more so the shorter your investment horizon.

See for example

[1] F. Allen, S. Morris, and H. S. Shin. Beauty contests and iterated expectations in asset markets. Review of Financial Studies, 19(3):161–177, 2006.

which shows the failure of the law of iterated expectations (which is used to establish your original assertion) for the average expectations operator.

You then have

[2] P. Bacchetta and E. Van Wincoop. Higher order expectations in asset pricing. Journal of Money, Credit and Banking, 40(5):837–866, 2008.

who derive a gap between price and fundamental value (understood as the NPV formula that would prevail without the interference of higher-order beliefs) in the presence of heterogeneous expectations.

And last but not least,

[3] M. Kurz and M. Motolese. Diverse beliefs and time variability of risk premia. Economic Theory, 47(2-3):293–335, 2011.

who generalize this from the asymmetric information frameworks used above, where expectations are coordinated by the public signal, to a symmetric information setting where it is the correlation of beliefs that coordinates expectations.

In the end, this is all building on Keynes's original intuition that if agents hold diverse beliefs about the future "the energies and skill of the professional investor and speculator are […] concerned, not with what an investment is really worth to a man who buys it ‘for keeps’, but with what the market will value it at."

So no, it is not necessarily the best strategy to only focus on NPV of cash flows. The shorter your time horizon, the more you depend on what "other people" expect too, whether you think them foolish or not.

_____________________

PS: Of course, if you believe that you have no predictive power w.r.t. what "Mr. Market" thinks (to borrow from Ben Graham's exasperated simile), then by all means your optimal strategy becomes to lengthen your horizon as far out as possible and concentrate only on NPV of cash flows, just as you said, in the spirit of value investing. I'm only pointing out that the optimality of this strategy hinges on both your investment horizon and your belief about your relative predictive powers w.r.t. "Mr. Market" and the fundamentals (leaving aside positive feedback loops or what Soros called "reflexivity" between price and fundamentals for now).

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by yummyfajitas on Friday July 24, 2015 @10:47PM (#9946348)
Rational expectations and heterogeneous expectations don't conflict with each other. Rational expectations only assumes that the aggregate expectation of the economy is an unbiased predictor.

Individual agents are free to be irrational, biased, and heterogeneous. In fact, heterogeneity is required in nearly any model, otherwise no trades will occur.

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by HSO on Saturday July 25, 2015 @04:33AM (#9947003)
> Rational expectations and heterogeneous expectations don't conflict with each other.

Good point, although I didn't say they did. One can indeed view RE as a special case of heterogeneous expectations, and in fact that is essentially what I argue in a paper I am working on: That efficient markets are a region in the parameter space of more general market models, and that by traversing that parameter space one can generate different market outcomes. By way of illustration, take the public signal out of the above cited paper [1]. Without the coordination provided by the public signal the law of iterated expectations works again for the average expectations operator!

Regarding the source of heterogeneity, I don't agree with your citation of irrationality or biases. I am not an expert on behavioral economics but from what I understand, behavioral models seem very fragile to the insertion or presence of even a few rational agents, hence the need to erect "limits of arbitrage" by adding frictions, constraints, etc. It is possible to motivate heterogeneous expectations in a more robust way, see my reference [3] above and further references therein, for example. The basic idea is to generalize the economic system from ergodicity or even stationarity, so that heterogeneity is motivated epistemologically, rather than psychologically.

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by crabasa on Friday July 24, 2015 @10:27PM (#9946312)
Comments like this make me wish that HN had a "follow" button.
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by rifung on Friday July 24, 2015 @07:46PM (#9945904)
how many of the people who buy and sell stocks can be considered rational or even investors (vs speculators)
Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by bduerst on Friday July 24, 2015 @06:32PM (#9945635)
Not at all.

A rational investor knows how others value something and acts accordingly. What you described is one way to value something. If it was just you and me buying stocks, I would know how you act and get in front of your behavior to profit from it.

In finance you don't have to be the smartest person in the room to succeed, you just need to know the most about what everyone else is thinking.

Re:Amazon Is Now Worth More Than Wal-Mart by chaostheory on Friday July 24, 2015 @07:05PM (#9945770)
> If Amazon does actually succeed in growing to Wal-Mart levels of sales, it will end up with a lot more employees than it currently has

It'll still be a lot less than Walmart since they don't have brick and mortar stores on a large scale and Amazon is very bullish on robotics.