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Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by lquist on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @06:57PM (#9808932)
This is what Ben Horowitz has to say about matching competing offers:

An excellent engineer decides to leave the company because she gets a better offer. For various reasons, you were undercompensating her, but the offer from the other company pays more than any engineer in your company and the engineer in question is not your best engineer. Still, she is working on a critical project and you cannot afford to lose her. So you match the offer. You save the project, but you pile on the debt.

Here’s how the payment will come due. You probably think that your counteroffer was confidential because you’d sworn her to secrecy. Let me explain why it was not. She has friends in the company. When she got the offer from the other company, she consulted with her friends. One of her best friends advised her to take the offer. When she decided to stay, she had to explain to him why she disregarded his advice or lose personal credibility. So she told him and swore him to secrecy. He agreed to honor the secret, but was incensed that she had to threaten to quit in order to get a proper raise. Furthermore, he was furious that you overcompensated her. So, he told the story, but kept her name confidential to preserve the secret. And now everyone in engineering knows that the best way to get a raise is to generate an offer from another company then threaten to quit. It’s going to take awhile to pay off that debt.

For what it's worth, most competent managers I know agree with this idea.

Edit: I should mention that I am NOT advocating paying people less than market wage, but as managers know, sometimes you end up in this position with some employees for periods of time without meaning to.

http://www.bhorowitz.com/management_debt

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by famousactress on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @07:07PM (#9808968)
"...but the offer from the other company pays more than any engineer in your company and the engineer in question is not your best engineer. Still, she is working on a critical project and you cannot afford to lose her. So you match the offer."

Jesus that all sounds so ridiculous to me. That's a funny shell game around admitting that someone was more valuable than you were paying them, and then guess what - lots of other people are.

If the argument is "But she isn't always this valuable.. she's just this valuable on this project" then attach a financial incentive to the project.

Sadly, I don't get the sense that Ben is suggesting that there's a problem with not compensating commensurate with value here or with depending on the employer-preferential taboo of the secret salary. He seems to just argue you should let this engineer walk and the project die.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by Retra on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @07:53PM (#9809136)
If I were the engineer, I would also walk and let the project die. Because when that project is over, you're going to be the "highest paid but not best person on the team" and there's no reason they shouldn't be looking to release you for that anyway.
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by EGreg on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @12:54AM (#9810142)
If you threaten to leave to another company and that's how you get a raise, the relationship's been poisoned and it's just a matter of time until you leave.

This is just another reason why I love project based consulting more than FTE. The incentives are properly aligned. Adam Smith would smile.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by recursive on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @01:53AM (#9810272)
Nope. I took a generous counter-offer over a year ago. I've only increased in critical responsibilities since then.
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by saiya-jin on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @08:47AM (#9811462)
This can be a double edge sword. you enjoy your new responsibilities? good for you. not everybody wants to get more and more on their shoulders until the point of realizing that there ins't much time for that little thing called life. Also, most people who get promoted/raised around me end up working much more compared to raise they've been given.

Personal experience - in every single work I've done (roughly 10 customers/employers, perm+consultant) in 3 different countries, there was/is always room to grab more responsibility, more tasks etc. State of IT usually just a variation of a term MESS, with some technical debt here and there, everywhere. You work harder, solve more, take more responsibility and your career progresses along (or you go to place where it does faster).

But with this might also come 9-10 hours at work instead of 8 (plus lunch), company phone which is there just to remind you of the work when you're not in, maybe more weekends screwed up and so on. Even in otherwise very work/life balance oriented employers.

Want another advice? When having a formal talk with your boss, tell him you want a raise, but you don't want it for free, rather bringing added value. Define clear terms what is expected from you to get there, fulfill them and watch the magic happen :)

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by recursive on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @10:58AM (#9812218)
Yes, I got the extra responsibilities I asked for. I don't have a company phone. Everything is actually good.
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by sliverstorm on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @02:28AM (#9810300)
The damage you can cause is not necessarily the same as the value you contribute. When you're negotiating on threat of tanking a project, it seems to me like you've turned it into a hostage negotiation- a different beast.

(Just imagine a project worth $X with two lynchpins, both of whose absence would tank the project. Both can cause $X in damage, but you obviously cannot pay each $X)

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by daemin on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @04:54AM (#9810689)
Ultimately if a (large) project is in danger because one or two key engineering people quit, then it's the fault of the managers involved for not mitigating that risk.

Either by increasing their title or pay as they are that critical, or by not distributing the key knowledge around so that everyone is dispensable.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by saiya-jin on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @08:50AM (#9811477)
stick around for long enough, and you'll probably become critical. sad true is, most of these people don't have salaries as high as those jumping around frequently. but as long as they're OK with work, not much to complain about
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by mistermann on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @08:13PM (#9809205)
> If the argument is "But she isn't always this valuable.. she's just this valuable on this project" then attach a financial incentive to the project.

This is actually a fantastic idea, for both sides.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by s73v3r on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @08:38PM (#9809285)
For the employer, sure. But it'd have to be pretty high, as in much higher than the raise for me to consider the possibility of that over just getting a raise.
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by saiya-jin on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @08:48AM (#9811469)
raise is a permanent bonus, on top of other bonuses actually called... bonus
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by shanemhansen on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @08:18PM (#9809222)
Here's what happens if you don't counter: she leaves. Critical project fails. Everyone in engineering knows that the market rate is greater than what you are paying and that you won't counter. Expect a flood of 2 week notices.

Here's the thing. By the time someone is actively interviewing, you've already lost. Treat your compensation like you would any other product and try and figure out how to differentiate your product. Cash by it's very nature is interchangeable. Benefits, perks, camaraderie aren't.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by meatysnapper on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @08:25PM (#9809244)
In general, you can expect all the good ambitious people to leave. The ones who stay are those who think they can stay and play politics better, or have a "beaten wife" mentality that they think is loyalty, or are on a visa.

EDIT: A previous boss of mine was unhappy I was quitting, and apologized that he couldn't give me $40k in cash to stay for another year. Me leaving meant they needed to search for a new, qualified person, and then spend the time training them, which was certainly close to $40k of time-money. Unfortunately, upper management didn't care.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by twistedpair on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @09:05AM (#9811541)
That's why you shouldn't hire "good, ambitious people." I jest, but really. Sure startups want that ambition, but not run of the mill companies. I've worked at a few mega financial firms and what they really want are mildy competent drones that are prepared to idle in their carrier working 9:30-4:30.

You see, the problem with "good, ambitious people" is they want to (1) keep learning new things, (2) work on projects that expand their expertise, (3) continue on a monotonously increasing career trajectory. Sadly 85% of the coding out there is more like "IT" and keeping the lights on, fixing the CRUD apps, etc. Ambitious people are a major flight risk at such companies, and worse, they might bring in some new tech or complicated patterns that the drones that replace them don't understand, and then the firm has to chuck that code and go back to the former, easier to understand but far less performant code. I've seen it happen several times.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by s_kilk on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @04:34AM (#9810629)
>> In general, you can expect all the good ambitious people to leave.

"The thing about this place... Everyone with get-up-and-go has already got up and gone"

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by crdb on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @03:26AM (#9810429)
I've had this exact conversation more times than I care to remember. Not only does upper management not care but they probably told him off (as they did me) for not sacrificing his integrity and reputation to BS you into staying with promises they knew he couldn't deliver.
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by vadman on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @03:02PM (#9814335)
I brought up the topic of raise with one of my previous bosses, and he promised to check with the higher-ups.

Some time later, he honestly told me: "The only way they would give you a raise is to prevent you from leaving. At that point, if you already went through the trouble of getting another offer, you might as well leave." Several months later, I did. Money wasn't the only factor -- the big new project I was hired for got finished -- but it was a major one, they were underpaying me pretty badly.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by collyw on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @03:31AM (#9810450)
I have always thought this. It can take up to 6 months to get properly up to speed on a large project. So for those 6 months you are maybe averaging 50% productivity. That's basically 3 month salary a company is loosing by swapping staff. How many people get offered that sort of month to stay?
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by twistedpair on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @09:11AM (#9811562)
But then the code monkeys have won.

I worked for a major institution's engineering group where we formally asked "We're getting recruited all the time for more, will you raise comp to market to prevent people leaving?" Answer, "No." Annual attrition was 25%. At a recruiting/replacement cost of ~$40K, raises would have made more sense, but then managers would have failed to wield their power to "constrain their budget."

Logic need not apply.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by collyw on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @09:54AM (#9811784)
It reminds me of an essay that Joel wrote.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000024.html

Basically he points out that heavy use of methodology will get you guaranteed results. But that result is of very mediocre quality.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by jacalata on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @07:49PM (#9816044)
I turned down a job offer because it was about 10% below what I wanted. Four months later I saw the company complaining that they still hadn't filled the spot - I wonder if they think they made the right choice in refusing to negotite. (Probably they do, and they continued to do so with other candidates).
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by collyw on Thursday July 02, 2015 @03:31AM (#9817345)
I keep seeing the same ad for a job that I was contacted about a few months back. I refused to do their hour and a half hacker rank challenge on the basis that is nothing like how I work on a day to day basis, and I have examples of real work online if they need to see that I can code.
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by sliverstorm on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @12:12AM (#9810031)
In general, you can expect all the good ambitious people to leave.

Do the good ambitious people never realize that they won't actually accomplish anything worthwhile if they never stick around more than a year or two?

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by droopyEyelids on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @12:35AM (#9810101)
I agree with that. Anyone who is actually good and ambitions would never realize that because they know it isn't true.
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by sliverstorm on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @01:49AM (#9810267)
Maybe I am overstating a little, but all the works we see as great required staying power. Apollo was a ten year program. The Manhattan Project took 6 years to develop the bomb. Firefox took 2 years to exit beta, and the iPod took several years to pick up steam. and Tesla has been going 12 years, Space X 13.

It's not that you achieve nothing in a year tenure, but can you really accomplish anything great? Can you think of any good examples of people who showed up January 1st, changed the world, and left by Christmas?

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by dmichulke on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @07:54AM (#9811248)
If all long projects were great you would be right, unfortunately duration as a predictor does not positively contribute to greatness.
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by x0x0 on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @02:23AM (#9810281)
chrome v8 was built in 2 years: 2006 to release in 2008
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by CyberDildonics on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @10:07AM (#9811872)
Accomplish for whom is the question.
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by s73v3r on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @08:37PM (#9809279)
The money comes from different pools for those, though.
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by jmorrow977 on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @08:47PM (#9809321)
To me this is a sign of organizational dysfunction that the money can't be moved from one pool to another.
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by CyberDildonics on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @09:07PM (#9809422)
All money is money - 50 Cent
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by Adlai on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @02:52AM (#9810350)
I'm feeling lucky:

  50 Cent Talks Bitcoin: 'All Money Is Money' | | Observer
  observer.com/2014/12/50-cent-talks-bitcoin-all-money-is-money/
  Dec 22, 2014 - 50 Cent is happy he took Bitcoin for his album
  Animal Instinct, because "all money is money."
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by chuckcode on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @08:04PM (#9809178)
Most competent managers I know realize that under paying your team is another sort of debt that piles up and comes due. Compensation certainly isn't the only thing that matters to your team, but it is almost always an important factor. I certainly always considered it part of my management responsibilities to get proper compensation for my team by making clear to people making compensation decisions the value they brought to table and how expensive in time and money it would be to replace them.

I'm always surprised at how companies can be so nimble in markets for their products but be so poor at working in the market for their personnel. Often times it seems like getting some counter offers is the only way convince them that the market for engineers has changed significantly.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by Rambunctious on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @06:14AM (#9810944)
From a company's perspective, just because one person gets a market rate that is higher than the rest of the team, the entire team can't simply be given a raise. While this sort of largesse may work for Google & FB, I doubt it would for those companies that grow in single digit to low teen % per annum.

Also, if the person given this raise is not amongst your top performers and now ends up out earning the rest of team, it ends up affecting overall team morale. Your star performers then start to feel short changed and think they have to leave to get a raise.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @08:03PM (#9809174)
The problem with that theory is everyone that is capable of basic reasoning (which includes every competent engineer) already knows that getting an offer from another company at a higher pay and then quitting if it is not matched is a certain way to get increased compensation, wherever you end up working.

Failing to match when there is value to the company just means that every time you are faced with that choice, you always lose.

While the worst case with letting people know that that's a good way to get raises is that it puts upward pressure on wages until very few employees can get better offers that they'd be willing to threaten to quit for, and you still end up paying people not more than it is worth to retain them.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by twistedpair on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @08:58AM (#9811506)
You probably think that your counteroffer was confidential because you’d sworn her to secrecy. Let me explain why it was not.

Actually, you're problem was forgetting that it's illegal in the US to prevent employee's from sharing compensation information. You can't require that in an employment contract and can't formally punish an employee for disclosing said information. :)

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by sudeepj on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @10:47PM (#9809805)
While undergoing an MBA, one of the HR professor told the class which I still remember. That is "Good & competent candidates choose the companies they want to work with. Companies does not choose them." Its upto the org to make it enticing and attractive for the good candidates. That is why working in Apple, Google or Microsoft is still an aspirational thing for considerable number of people.

This off-course does not directly explain to what is being said above in the parent ... just want to share a thought.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by beaner on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @07:48PM (#9809115)
So what is actually being advocated here? Pay higher salaries to everyone, or don't budge for competing offers?
Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by seiji on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @07:52PM (#9809133)
His entire argument is that the company must retain power in employee relationships, never the employee.

If one non-manager employee is ever in a position to show other employees they are being undervalued, the employees may do something stupid like demand the company fix the situation. Can't have uppity employees. Employees exist to be subservient to the ever-changing, unanswerable will of the CEO, not set the rules themselves.

The CEO gets to fail upward and become investor-class while shitting downwards on lowly employees who would dare to try and be paid what they are worth. How dare they attempt to confront such holy and monied highness as a CEO. Know your place, employee.

Re:The Software Engineer’s Guide to Negotiating a Raise by bigtunacan on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @12:54AM (#9810144)
I also read Ben's book. Here's the flip side of that. You don't counter and your engineer leaves. The other company needs more engineers so the one that left helps poach more.