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Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by UK-AL on Friday June 26, 2015 @11:29AM (#9785170)
But you have to remember. This is one group of people(taxi drivers), not allowing another group of people(Uber drivers) not to earn a living driving cars.

There is no free lunch. If you introduce regulation to protect a group of people, another group of people loses out.

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by claudius on Friday June 26, 2015 @11:34AM (#9785216)
> There is no free lunch. If you introduce regulation to protect a group of people, another group of people loses out.

And the correct way to change that in a modern democracy is to lobby for better laws in parliament and/or found your own party and then win the population’s votes to fix your issue.

Wilfully ignoring existing laws implies a fundamental lack of respect for society and democracy.

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by wskinner on Friday June 26, 2015 @12:10PM (#9785604)
Why shouldn't people willfully ignore unfair laws? Isn't there quite a bit of that sort of behavior in the history people fighting for civil and economic rights?
Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by toomuchtodo on Friday June 26, 2015 @12:14PM (#9785637)
Immoral? Yes. Unfair? Laws will sometimes be unfair. Citizen's rights trump consumer demands.
Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by wskinner on Friday June 26, 2015 @12:43PM (#9785919)
Who gets to decide what's immoral and what is only unfair? And just because a French person puts on his consumer hat, does he suddenly cease being a citizen? By granting monopoly rights to one group (the taxi industry) you limit the rights of another group (everyone who wants to get from point A to point B). If the war on drugs, gay marriage, and free love teach us anything, it's that violence can't stop consenting adults from transacting with each other.
Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by toomuchtodo on Friday June 26, 2015 @12:44PM (#9785932)
> Who gets to decide what's immoral and what is only unfair?

A government, as governed by its citizens. That's what laws are for.

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by asift on Friday June 26, 2015 @11:59AM (#9785501)
Why should people respect a system that doesn't respect them? Disrespect for immoral laws is valuable for the continued evolution of liberal societies.
Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by claudius on Friday June 26, 2015 @12:50PM (#9785979)
> Why should people respect a system that doesn't respect them?

The people are the system, it is impossible for the system “democratic society” to disrespect “the people”. I also did not say that one must respect immoral laws, I said that breaking laws implies disrespect for the way by which these laws were put into place – namely the free democratic society.

You can disrespect immoral laws all day long and I encourage you to do so, just don’t break them unless absolutely necessary (because the alternative would be much worse). Taxi transportation is such a triviality that it certainly doesn’t qualify for that.

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by toomuchtodo on Friday June 26, 2015 @12:03PM (#9785536)
Labor laws aren't (EDIT: intended to be) immoral.
Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by asift on Friday June 26, 2015 @12:30PM (#9785793)
A sweeping statement such as this is almost certainly false. Of course, some labor laws are perfectly moral, but some are immoral as well.

In general terms, labor laws such as wage prohibitions and occupational licensing tend to give relatively economically advantaged workers artificial advantages over lower skilled workers. In this respect, they serve as upwards redistribution of wealth and opportunity. At the same time, they restrict consumer sovereignty and the ability for people to freely engage in commerce. Of course, there are counter arguments to these as well. My intent here is not to make any overly simplistic sweeping claims, but to point out that there are some thoughtful and powerful lines of reasoning that call into question the morality of many existing labor regulations.

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by toomuchtodo on Friday June 26, 2015 @12:35PM (#9785853)
> My intent here is not to make any overly simplistic sweeping claims, but to point out that there are some thoughtful and powerful lines of reasoning that call into question the morality of many existing labor regulations.

I don't believe we disagree on this. Labor laws are a balance between the right of a citizen to earn a living wage and the right of a consumer to engage in commerce permitted by the State.

With that said, I believe that consumer sovereignty should never take precedence over labor rights.

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by asift on Friday June 26, 2015 @02:20PM (#9786683)
>With that said, I believe that consumer sovereignty should never take precedence over labor rights.

Because the buggymaker's job is more important than the consumer's right to buy an automobile?

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by toomuchtodo on Friday June 26, 2015 @07:28PM (#9788330)
You don't have a right to someone's labor below a minimum rate set by the government. We call that slavery.
Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by cromwellian on Saturday June 27, 2015 @05:34AM (#9789617)
Slavery is non-consensual labor. Uber drivers aren't slaves, have you talked to any? I engage in conversation with Uber drivers almost every time, many of them are ex-Taxi drivers, and many of them like Uber far more. Here are some of the usual comments I am told:

1. Can work on my own schedule. "When I was a Taxi driver, I had to show up at the dispatcher to pick up a car on their schedule." 2. Driving someone else's car. "Sometimes I sit 2 hours waiting for a car to be returned to begin my shift, often it is dirty and I am required to clean it before taking it out." 3. Freedom to engage in a side business. "My wife makes jewelry, I display it on the back seat and sell it to tourists who are interested." 4. Higher pay. Yes, there are studies that try to debunk this by citing higher costs or higher variability, but the arguments are unpersuasive. They count the cost of a driver maintaining his Uber car, while treating the medallion company's maintenance as a benefit, but an UberX driver and a Taxi Cab driver who owns a personal vehicle both pay car maintenance costs, albeit there's more wear and tear on the UberX car. Likewise, while variability is higher in salary, so is freedom in work hours and Uber drivers consistently rate this as the most loved feature of being an Uber driver.

This isn't really about labor laws, this is about regulatory capture. The French government has created an artificial shortage of supply, assigned special rights to a Guild, which simultaneously jacks up prices and provides more inconvenience to the customer, while establishing a monopoly in which bad drivers with bad attitudes can't be contested.

It then lets this group which has performed regulatory capture, essentially engage in mass property damage, terror (smashing cars with people in them), actions which are inherently dangerous and could lead to people getting killed on the roads, all without arresting them, or making them criminally or civilly liable.

What will France do if the entire world moves to self-driving vehicles? Will they ban them to protect French Taxi cab drivers? Will you claim the Robots are Slaves? What would they do if public transport threatened Taxi Cab driver salaries if some new public transport system made cabs less needed?

The French government has allowed itself to be captured by a minority industry. This isn't about broad labor rights, it's about a small guild trying to protect its monopoly by holding the government / citizenry hostage with violent protests.

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by UK-AL on Friday June 26, 2015 @12:07PM (#9785571)
Huge chunk of them have unintended bad effects.

French labour laws in general overwhelmingly advantage the older(as in already employed), and established workers and disadvantage younger workers and new entrants.

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by toomuchtodo on Friday June 26, 2015 @12:11PM (#9785610)
Unintended bad effects != immoral.
Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by asift on Friday June 26, 2015 @12:48PM (#9785962)
It does when those unintended consequences are immoral.
Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by igrekel on Friday June 26, 2015 @11:56AM (#9785471)
Uber and Über drivers were already illegal, even before the protests.

In part because they not pay social security like everyone else and that is part of how they drive the prices down.

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by toomuchtodo on Friday June 26, 2015 @11:34AM (#9785212)
So the solution is to allow everyone to compete until wages are driven down to 0?
Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by UK-AL on Friday June 26, 2015 @11:37AM (#9785251)
By the time wages are driven down to that level, people would have left the profession for better jobs paying more.

Software developers have deal with unregulated competition and do quite well.

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by toomuchtodo on Friday June 26, 2015 @11:38AM (#9785264)
We'll agree to disagree.

EDIT (to respond to your EDIT):

> Software developers have deal with unregulated competition and do quite well.

The level of knowledge and critical thinking required to develop (quality) software is a bit greater than that required to drive a vehicle. I'd argue that as additional resources are developed/released to aid people learning to code, along with resources that make writing code remotely with a team more painless, the value of software developers as a whole will drop.

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by UK-AL on Friday June 26, 2015 @11:50AM (#9785404)
Yes.

Why should someone be paid quite a high salary, for job that in your words requires a lower education? Shall we mandate all jobs should be paid well? If low skill jobs pay almost as well as high skill/high paying jobs, where's the economic incentive in increasing your skills? In many ways its a trap, because you won't go out of your way to increase your skills.

And when people say Taxi driving is actually quite a high skill job. I say you should have no problem fighting off the competition then.

"software developers as a whole will drop." And on that day, I'll get an MBA instead proving that the incentives work.

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by toomuchtodo on Friday June 26, 2015 @12:00PM (#9785509)
I didn't say they should be paid quite a high salary. They should be paid at least minimum wage.

Regarding your MBA:

“A degree has value only if the degree is scarce, and the MBA is completely unscarce,” says Jeffrey Pfeffer, professor of organisational behaviour at Stanford Graduate School of Business.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/2313a2f8-7c81-11e3-b514-00144feabd...

Re:French government orders Uber taxi ban after protests by UK-AL on Friday June 26, 2015 @12:03PM (#9785539)
Taxi drivers earn a lot more than minimum wage, if your competent.

"Regarding your MBA:" Or whatever degree pays.