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Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by kw71 on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @09:48AM (#9771510)
It sounds like you would have been saved a lot of stress, indignation and hassle if they had simply asked you, and spent five minutes checking up on your answer, before arresting you.

Considering the number of fingers that may have touched a telephone book during its manufacture and distribution (surely the cops have phone books and knew they weren't sent in the post, or if they had found a post worker's fingerprints on a piece of mail they wouldn't have arrested the postal worker) it seems to me that they may have been reckless in their conclusion.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by NoMoreNicksLeft on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @10:46AM (#9771918)
This happens because the police aren't intelligent people.

In a Sherlock Holmes story, the protagonist uses forensic evidence but he thinks about what the evidence means.

The police, on the other hand, want a magic oracle device that spits out names and current addresses, and they treat forensics like it was such.

In the United States, having a valid explanation for why your fingerprints were on some object wouldn't necessarily get you freed, it wouldn't necessarily prevent prosecution. Some asshole DAs here would take that to trial (or extort you into a plea bargain, at least).

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by pixl97 on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @11:05AM (#9772074)
>The police, on the other hand, want...

someone to get arrested so it looks like they are doing a good job so the chief gets off their back, the chief wants this because re-election is coming soon and doesn't want to look weak on crime. Neither one of them can go pick up some random black guy for the crime any longer without too much media attention so 'forensic' evidence is what they try to use today.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by TallGuyShort on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @11:32AM (#9772285)
I'm sure many police are not like this, but they also want the power trip. I was once pulled over by a cop who was driving incredibly recklessly on icy roads to get behind me fast (when I saw him swerving in my mirror I actually thought he must be on his way to an active shooter situation or something). He yelled at me to give him my license, and then ordered me to get out of the car and sit on the curb because he thought it was a fake. When it turned out to be authentic, he politely informed me that one of the lights illuminating my license plate were out and that my registration was expired. He wrote me a ticket. My registration was not expired, and I fixed the light the next day. The judge was laughing his head off at the ticket and called people in from the hallway to see how silly it was. But my complaint about the officer was just "noted".
Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by drostie on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @01:27PM (#9773087)
I was pulled over by a cop because I essentially "cut him off" at an intersection, pulling from my complete stop at a stop sign across the intersection while he, further behind but with no stop sign, was turning into the same road: he therefore couldn't keep so much of his momentum but once he got into the road he needed to slow way down to match my speed.

Fortunately, I had a tail light out -- not a brake light, just the ones that idle on when the car is running. When he asked "do you know why I pulled you over?" I said "Because I have this tail light out: but the brake lights are fine, I have this appointment to fix them tomorrow, and here is this warning that this other officer gave me about the problem, which clearly says that it has to be fixed by the end of the week."

He said out-right "no, that's not why I pulled you over, you ran that stop sign," and I said, "no, I came to a complete stop, I always do, it's one of those disciplines I have that really annoys my girlfriend..." and such. Probably I shouldn't have even tried to argue it? But I did.

In the end, he came back with a ticket for "driving a defective vehicle" -- because the tail light was out, and despite the fact that he should have ideally deferred to the earlier warning. I asked him about it and he said, "you didn't fix it fast enough!" brusquely. Probably he wanted to lean on my immediate statement of "this is broken but I am fixing it tomorrow" in any trial, like, "he immediately confessed to the crime."

This turn of events was quite fortunate as when the county prosecutor saw both pieces of paper side-by-side (the warning, "fix by the 9th", and the ticket issued on the 7th, or whatever), she agreed to drop the case before it went to trial. (I had also been told by a police clerk that the judge was pretty lenient about traffic violations, so that may have also been in her mind.)

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by FireBeyond on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @03:56PM (#9774076)
"I was pulled over by a cop because I essentially "cut him off" at an intersection, pulling from my complete stop at a stop sign across the intersection while he, further behind but with no stop sign, was turning into the same road: he therefore couldn't keep so much of his momentum but once he got into the road he needed to slow way down to match my speed."

Apropos of anything else - you DID cut him off, and you did fail to yield (Stop signs are also Yields). His argument about you running the stop sign is invalid, sure, if you were at a complete stop, but if you're forcing someone who did not have to yield to, by your own words, 'slow way down' to match you pulling out in front of them, then you were in the wrong.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by drostie on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @04:28PM (#9774263)
I did cut him off. That's not a crime, but it was definitely a dick move. It was 2 AM and had it not been so late I'd probably have been nicer and just waited. (He might have been hoping that he'd caught a drunk driver?)

I don't think I 'failed to yield' to him because I exited the intersection before he entered it: he only really had to slow down once he got into the road I was in. But had he given me a ticket for that, I might have just taken responsibility and paid the fine. I mean, I think I could plausibly argue the case in court because I "made it" well ahead of him. But then again, he may have started slowing down much sooner, and it could be a thorny argument.

What interested me most about it at the time was: it was a 3-way T-shaped intersection formed by taking a 4-way intersection and blocking off the North end with construction work. So the North-South road had no signs, but the general rule for such intersections (and I think it's explicitly written down in most states, but I'm not sure) would be that the South traffic has to yield to East/West traffic: in other words, in combination with the East/West stop signs, I think the law-books would imply that the road should have implicitly become an all-way stop.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by LordKano on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @03:51PM (#9774049)
Probably he wanted to lean on my immediate statement of "this is broken but I am fixing it tomorrow" in any trial, like, "he immediately confessed to the crime."

That's precisely why he asked the question in the first place. Never admit to anything.

A few years ago, I got a ticket for driving with an expired inspection sticker. I knew it was expired and it was my fault so I wasn't going to try to argue my way out of it but when the officer asked if I knew why he pulled me over, I said "I have a pretty good idea, officer but I'm not going to say it out loud."

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by waqf on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @05:35PM (#9774651)
Hmm, I wouldn't try that again.

  Prosecutor: In Officer Wiggum's evidence he stated that you said you had a
  "pretty good idea" why he pulled you over.  Is that correct?
  You: I guess.
  Prosecutor: And what was that idea?
Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by LordKano on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @05:42PM (#9774690)
I could respond to that with "I'm going to assert my 5th amendment right and not answer that question" or "That was several months ago, I don't recall exactly what I thought" or "Because it was near the end of the month and I believe that officers have quotas to meet" or "Because I'm black".

All of that is moot. Where I live, there's no prosecutor involved for traffic tickets.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by spacemanmatt on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @07:32PM (#9775145)
That idea, was that I am a wax tadpole. Was that also your idea?
Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by ISL on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @11:37AM (#9772324)
Every law enforcement officer I've talked with at length has been an intelligent person.

I think we all want tools that help us do our jobs quickly and more reliably. Forensic science is, in aggregate, a tool for discovering what's true. Improvements in forensic science are, on balance, a net positive.

In the United States, nothing prevents prosecution. The state can bring whatever charges it wants. The bulwarks of our freedom are in the courts, the ballot box, and in the enumerated Bill of Rights.

It's the jury of our peers and a speedy trial that check the ability of prosecutors to do us individual harm. As a society, it's our power at the ballot box that determines who we admit into the job of prosecution.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by biomcgary on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @12:07PM (#9772536)
The intelligence of individual officers is not the issue even though smart candidates are actively discriminated against in some locations (see: http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/sto...). Prosecutors control the entire process and have largely negated trial by jury through the use of multiple charges and plea bargains (see: http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/plea-bargain-...). Many prosecutors are not directly elected, so the ballot box does not provide a direct path to a solution. Furthermore, I doubt many voters vote for candidates based on who they will appoint as a prosecutor.
Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by npsimons on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @01:49PM (#9773225)
> I think we all want tools that help us do our jobs quickly and more reliably.

I can't help but feel there's something vital missing from police, DA, etc training. I'm reminded very distinctly of my ethics class (which was required for graduation), where we were told the horror story of the THERAC-25. Even now, when I work on software for the military, I am very conscious of what my decisions may cost. Why aren't police, judges, district attorneys and forensic scientists required to take classes that tell them of stories like this one? I feel that juries aren't enough, especially when they are surrounded by those with much more experience and comfort in the courtroom.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by rahimnathwani on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @01:10PM (#9772991)
"Every law enforcement officer I've talked with at length has been an intelligent person."

This could be selection bias at work. Perhaps you terminate conversations with less intelligent officers earlier, without realising the reason you do so. So, these less intelligent ones are forgotten, or removed from your sample because the conversation was not long enough to find strong evidence about intelligence.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by NoMoreNicksLeft on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @01:25PM (#9773075)
> Every law enforcement officer I've talked with at length has been an intelligent person.

No. He's just poor at judging intelligence, like everyone else.

If they are polite and don't raise their voice and there are no obvious deficiencies in their vocabulary or pronunciation, and they seem to be minimally informed on current events and trends, you couldn't tell an idiot from a genius. You have no ability to see their thought processes, and you've never really bothered to try to infer them.

Studies even suggest you don't know what's going on in your own brain either. This despite the fact that you are actually privy to at least some of your own thought process.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by wfunction on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @03:47PM (#9774036)
> Studies even suggest

[citation needed]

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by pessimizer on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @04:52PM (#9774386)
Eric Schwitzgebel specializes in papers about studies about this: http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/

The citations will probably be helpful for you to find the studies and similar ones.

My favorites:

Why did we think we dreamed in black and white?

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzAbs/DreamB&W.htm

How well do we know our own conscious experience? The case of human echolocation.

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzAbs/Echo.htm

edit: here's an interview - http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/the-splintered-skeptic/

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by MaysonL on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @08:07PM (#9775236)
Tor Nørretranders (1998). The User Illusion: Cutting Consciousness Down to Size. Viking. ISBN 0-670-87579-1.
Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by rayiner on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @12:09PM (#9772560)
Would a DA take you to trial based on a single fingerprint on a phonebook? Even in the article at issue, an example of justice system at its worst, the prosecution was based on an eye-witness identification in addition to the tenuous forensic evidence.
Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by NoMoreNicksLeft on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @01:23PM (#9773063)
I read an article a year or so ago about a prosecutor who, once DNA evidence revealed that the defendant (convicted prior) was innocent started theorizing that he was one of two rapist, but wore a condom.

So yeh. There are no limits and no meaningful rules as to what they can and will do. Certainly many feel no moral or ethical constraints on their actions.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by harryh on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @01:30PM (#9773106)
And what actually ended up happening in that situation? Did the DA take the defendant to trial under that theory?
Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by MertsA on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @06:52PM (#9775008)
I think he's referring to the case of Roy Criner. What was ridiculous is that I remember watching a documentary that focused in part about this case and they interviewed the district attorney who was denying an appeal of the case after the DNA analysis of the semen confirmed that it didn't belong to Roy Criner. The DA was adamant that he was obviously guilty because he was given a fair trial and that the DNA evidence just meant that the victim also had sex with someone else recently before she was raped and murdered by Criner.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/legalclinic/wrongfulconvicti... http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/case/etc/updat...

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by mavdi on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @10:24AM (#9771765)
I was surprised by their conclusion. The only item with finger prints on it was the phone book. So I asked them, would a burglar go about stealing things, then just as he's about to leave the home, he takes off his gloves and checks out a phonebook? And then puts the gloves back on to open the door to leave?
Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by Bluestrike2 on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @10:57AM (#9772007)
Isn't that sort of like poking a finger in the lion's eye without being able to run away? You're absolutely right, but while that's logical, it's also the sort of thing that a detective already fixated on you might think of as gloating. Insert new theory of the crime: you weren't helping your mother out of the goodness of your heart, but so you could scope out potential victims. And maybe you did touch the phone book during the crime for the adrenaline rush, content in the belief that it's the last place the police would think to dust for prints. All theories made less crazy because the detective thinks you were a smug SOB.

You mentioned that you felt lucky; sad to say, I think you're probably right. What a nightmare of an experience.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by dave_sullivan on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @12:06PM (#9772534)
Indeed. "Ah ha! How could you know the burglar was wearing gloves if you weren't at the scene of the crime?" No winning there.

Never talk to police without a lawyer is good advice, but that advice literally translates to "Never talk to police without paying someone $300 per hour to do it." Meanwhile, police, at no additional cost to themselves, can essentially compel you to talk to them any time they want. So it's pretty easy to push people around with that dynamic, yet most people I talk to seem to bury their head in the sand on the issue.

I'm reminded of:

George Aaronow: When I talk to the police I get nervous.

Ricky Roma: Yes. You know who doesn't?

George Aaronow: Who?

Ricky Roma: Thieves.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by anon4 on Thursday June 25, 2015 @03:56PM (#9780526)
It's not that much. That lawyer then would spend those money staying at one of your hotels or such. What goes around comes around.
Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by enjo on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @03:44PM (#9774012)
After I had my home broken into the guy taking fingerprints explained to me that fingerprints don't really work like that. You're lucky to pull one single print out of an entire house, regardless of how careful a burglar was.

So I suspect that finding one good print and extrapolating a suspect from it is probably pretty common. Flawed obviously, but common.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by phkahler on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @12:28PM (#9772680)
>> Considering the number of fingers that may have touched a telephone book during its manufacture and distribution (surely the cops have phone books and knew they weren't sent in the post, or if they had found a post worker's fingerprints on a piece of mail they wouldn't have arrested the postal worker) it seems to me that they may have been reckless in their conclusion.

That's why such evidence is supposed to be supportive of a larger case. Of course there will be a fingerprint on almost any given item. If you have a complete biometric database of every person in the country you will be able to match it, but that doesn't mean anything at all. If the person matched happens to be local it still doesn't mean anything by itself. In this case there was a plausible innocent explanation of how it got there, but in most cases people won't know how they spread their prints or DNA.

Re:A man who was jailed on the fantasy evidence of a single ... by crimsoneer on Thursday June 25, 2015 @03:58AM (#9776508)
At which point he could have disposed of evidence, refused to be interviewed, etc etc.

This is exactly how the legal system in the UK works - you arrest people at a relatively low burden of proof, and that gives you the power to detain them for a few hours while you question them, search for evidence, etc. You can't do any of that if you go over and "ask"