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Re:Do You See a Pattern? by RyanMcGreal on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @10:27AM (#972192)
> The theories that are taught in architecture schools today are of a different sort, and in the belief that the field of architecture should be grounded in intellectual speculation, rather than pragmatic observation, students are more likely to be assigned French post-structuralist texts than A Pattern Language. Which is a shame.

It's just astonishing, decades after Jane Jacobs' The Death and Life of Great American Cities, that pragmatic observation is still on the margins. What, a half-century of abject failure in building and neighbourhood design isn't enough to demonstrate the fundamental wrongheadedness of dogmatic, a priori design principles?

Re:Do You See a Pattern? by Skeuomorph on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @01:51PM (#972593)
There's an unforeseen problem with well patterned livable houses--they often don't sell well to conventional real estate buyers. If you need to relocate or access equity quickly, you're stuck with an remarkable property but buyers looking for McMansions. Buyers that do drop by out of curiosity comment with gems such as, "We could never live here, the master bath needs to be as big as the bedroom."

Seems as though the only way to move such a property is to offer it so far below market that people become willing to compromise and consider the more livable home instead of yet another generic "keeping up with the Joneses" colonial:

http://images.google.com/images?q=colonial%20house (exteriors)

It's galling, because such easily substitutable boxes have little intrinsic value beyond market. The cost to build a colonial is quite low compared to the cost of building, for example, "... varying ceiling heights between large and small rooms to create different degrees of intimacy."

One eye-line in my home reveals 8 ceiling heights, correlating to the intimacy of the spaces below them. It's extraordinary, but generic buyers want five bedrooms with full baths so what should be livable spaces end up the size of closets.

What's worse, when buyers today see the prices of McMansions plunging, they expect to see the price of a well patterned home (that may have cost 5x - 8x as much to build) also plunge, despite the more complex home already having a replacement cost higher than its asking price, price of materials and labor having risen.

(PS. Serious inquiries welcome for a well patterned home a commuter train ride from Manhattan.)

Re:Do You See a Pattern? by anamax on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @03:10PM (#972789)
> Seems as though the only way to move such a property is to offer it so far below market

You don't understand the term "market".

> What's worse, when buyers today see the prices of McMansions plunging, they expect to see the price of a well patterned home (that may have cost 5x - 8x as much to build) also plunge, despite the more complex home already having a replacement cost higher than its asking price, price of materials and labor having risen.

There's a cost associated with being "goofy". If that cost exceeds the benefits, perhaps you should reconsider your decisions.

Re:Do You See a Pattern? by Skeuomorph on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @06:21PM (#973266)
In 2009, it's fair to say the market doesn't understand the term market.

Less flippantly, "the market" and "the market for a well-patterened home" are two different things, and with zero properties of any kind changing hands for 10 - 12 months in certain affluent zip codes (home prices from seven to eight figures and sellers withdrawing listings rather than lower pricing), data is insufficient to establish what the broad market is, much less what a niche market would be. With no comps, pricing becomes arbitrary.

Re:Do You See a Pattern? by anamax on Thursday December 03, 2009 @01:40AM (#973860)
> In 2009, it's fair to say the market doesn't understand the term market.

Actually, it does. Past performance is no guarantee and all that.

> Less flippantly, "the market" and "the market for a well-patterened home" are two different things

Yes, the latter is a subset of the former. So?

> data is insufficient to establish what the broad market is, much less what a niche market would be. With no comps, pricing becomes arbitrary.

Actually, that data tells us that sellers in those places want too much money today. They may be able to get it tomorrow, or maybe not.

> With no comps, pricing becomes arbitrary.

Comps are not the final word on pricing. They aren't even necessary.

People buy when when they'd rather have what you're selling than the money that you're willing to accept for it. People sell when they'd rather have the money offered than the good they currently possess. There's nothing more to it than that.

Cost doesn't come into it. Neither does any notion of "intrinsic value" beyond the above.

If you perceive that the value of something that you have is more than you're being offered, that's the market saying "keep it".

Re:Do You See a Pattern? by Skeuomorph on Thursday December 03, 2009 @04:06PM (#975233)
> If you perceive that the value of something that you have is more than you're being offered, that's the market saying "keep it".

Or, with no supply, and no demand, it could be argued there is no market--no people showing up saying anything at all.

This table is missing a line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_form

"The main criteria by which one can distinguish between different market structures are: the number and size of producers and consumers in the market, the type of goods and services being traded, and the degree to which information can flow freely."

Here we see few to no sellers, few to no buyers, and no information flow. By http://www.answers.com/topic/market definitions 4d or 5, there is no market. By definitions 4a - 4c, the market is halted, illiquid, or frozen.

I'd also argue against the idea:

> that data tells us that sellers in those places want too much money today

It may tell us buyers don't have enough money, which seems a different thing entirely.

Externalities innate to producing a type of home may put such a home out of reach of the set of individuals presently seeking to purchase a home. Building a home absorbs labor, materials, land, and other inputs; those must be paid for in their appropriate markets (not a question of 'perception'), and a rational builder/seller will not build/sell for less than those costs unless forced.

Re:Do You See a Pattern? by rjurney on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @09:48PM (#973567)
Me and two other people built a house without blueprints. We just thought out the internals as we built it, debating the layouts by pretending to take actions on the bare floors. We got most things right, and a couple things wrong (doors in bad spots - why oh why not 2 feet right?). There are very few 90 degree angles (by design). Its an amazing house, very livable, and it suffers the same problem as yours.
Re:Do You See a Pattern? by kurtosis on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @02:59PM (#972756)
I agree with you nearly 100%, but why do you think the market fails to recognize the higher value of such a home?
Re:Do You See a Pattern? by mbrubeck on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @05:19PM (#973136)
Custom-designed or heavily modified buildings tend to be quirky; they are designed around the particular tastes and requirements of the previous owners. Generic houses are more one-size-fits-all. They may not fit any particular person as well, but you know what you're getting and there are certain baseline expectations that won't be violated.

To some extent, people actually will pay for quirkiness. It can be easier to find a home you love in a neighborhood with a mix of houses of different ages and styles and owner-modifications. Old houses can be more valuable partly because they've been modified over the years to be more livable. But for houses that are farther from the norm, it's harder to match the right house to the right buyer.

(I say this as the owner of an 80-year-old house in Seattle with some very odd changes made by previous occupants.)

Re:Do You See a Pattern? by wmf on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @03:59PM (#972936)
Indeed. If it's so much better, why doesn't anyone want it?
Re:Do You See a Pattern? by Skeuomorph on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @06:31PM (#973286)
That's like asking (in 2006 after the Intel switch but before everyone heard of the iPhone), "If it's so much better, why doesn't anyone want a Mac?" Arguably, "the market" didn't even know what it was, much less why they should value one. It's not that no one wanted a Mac, it's that less than 1 in 25 did. If only 10 people went shopping, odds were none were looking at a Mac.

Folks like Lindal Cedar Homes spend money marketing livable homes as an experience, but the general population isn't yet aware of the benefits or why they should even desire such a home.

Re:Do You See a Pattern? by ExcilSploft on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @03:34PM (#972862)
sans buying the book (which I now would like to), can you provide an example of a well patterned home as you did for Colonial/McMansions?
Re:Do You See a Pattern? by Skeuomorph on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @06:34PM (#973292)
Sure: http://lindal.com/homes/gallery/dwell_homes.cfm

I don't own a Lindal home, but do love this collection and their "small home" collection:

http://lindal.com/homes/gallery/small_treasures/summit.cfm

Re:Do You See a Pattern? by donaldc on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @10:59AM (#972258)
Such is the power of institutional, organizational, and societal inertia.
Re:Do You See a Pattern? by david927 on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @10:57AM (#972253)
It's a political problem; the democratization of principles. Sometimes what everyone likes isn't what's best for everyone.

It's interesting to note that Kent Beck, who brought Alexander to the attention of Erich Gamma, did so with the intention that it could be used for interface design (if I remember right).

Re:Do You See a Pattern? by notaddicted on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @11:08AM (#972278)
Would you advocate the same change in Computer Science education? Enough intellectual speculation: Java schools for all.

To make progress, you have to try something new.

Re:Do You See a Pattern? by RyanMcGreal on Wednesday December 02, 2009 @11:49AM (#972376)
> Enough intellectual speculation: Java schools for all.

A monolithic, one-size-fits-all approach is hardly consistent with an evidence-based approach that considers the needs of individual cases.