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Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by gnu8 on Friday June 12, 2015 @12:17PM (#9706825)
This person should rightfully be receiving most of the gross profits from the company making the displays as compensation for the loss of her hands, and the people responsible for designing an unsafe production process should be in prison, treated exactly the same as if they had walked up to her on the street and chopped her hands off with an ax.

This is not hyperbole, this is simple fairness and justice. The shareholders shouldn't receive a dime until after their victims have received their share, and any person or company complicit in unsafe industrial practices belongs in prison just as surely as if they had directly assaulted someone, because assault is what it is. There is zero reason to risk any human's personal safety just to increase a profit margin, and if we need to put executives, managers and engineers in prison to get that message across, so be it.

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by hliyan on Friday June 12, 2015 @01:04PM (#9707152)
This is horrendous on the part of the managers:

   “I want you to work faster, because we need the 
   material urgently,” he said.

   I screamed. Everyone around me was crying and yelling. 
   They stopped the assembly line on the female side of 
   the room, but the men were told to keep working.
In my first year in university, before picking my specialization (computers), we had to study the basics of all the engineering disciplines, including mechanical engineering. One day in workshop class, we were given the assignment of making a nut -- a nut, from a metal block, using a hammer and chisel. After laboring at it for hours and producing completely uneven hexagon, I asked the instructor:

"Why do we have to learn this? I'm studying to be an engineer. I'll never be doing this."

The instructor replied, "So you will know the difficulty the tasks you order others to do."

I felt immediately humbled. Fifteen years on, I've never forgotten this. In my position, I can't avoid putting pressure on people to perform anymore. But as much as possible, I've learned to see if it's something I could do myself if I were in the same position.

Pushing people to work harder is not management.

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by scarmig on Friday June 12, 2015 @01:23PM (#9707279)
That's idealistic, but the logic of raw capitalism suggests otherwise.

If a management philosophy increases worker stress by 500% but increases widget production by 5%, then companies that implement that philosophy will outperform, outcompete, and devour companies that don't. If one of out ten workers suffer a life debilitating injury but you can reduce the cost of that worker's injury to you to effectively zero (at least, to an amount much smaller than the additional profit you make), then you're still running a sound business.

In theory public outrage might punish companies that do mistreat their workers, but, let's be real: the vast bulk of the market prefers unethically produced widgets to ethically produced ones that are 10% pricier. And even a company that sells itself on being ethical is, as likely as not, just using that as a marketing campaign to hike up profits while still treating workers terribly.

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by ci5er on Saturday June 13, 2015 @09:53AM (#9710995)
Apparently, it is now illegal in the US to account for a worker as a low fixed cost capital asset, and instead we must treat all workers as a higher variable cost fungible commodity input. This makes a big difference on how one treats that piece of economic production equipment. (Or "cog in the wheel", we might call it?)

In any case - it's horrifying. I know that the US can't do much about mandating working conditions in factories in other countries. And we can't do much (this is in reaction to a comment ITT asserting that the shareholders shouldn't get their return until this is taken care of) about companies that are not headquartered (nor traded) in the US. (LG is, as you know, not an American company)

That said - this is one of those things that the company's liability insurance should be for. I don't know the mechanics involved, but it seems as if as a condition of importing a product into the US for retails sales, then one could ask for an annual report of claims: Number of factory workers, # of injuries; # of claims; # of settlements; amounts (in number of year equivalents of their normal salary). This could probably be avoided by shell company arrangements, so it may be both bureaucratically onerous and hard to enforce fairly.

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by pjmlp on Friday June 12, 2015 @01:52PM (#9707470)
Luckily there are countries where unions still matter.
Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by scarmig on Friday June 12, 2015 @02:00PM (#9707517)
The governments that control where workers actually manufacture things, however, either ban, co-opt, or brutalize unions.

It's no coincidence that China is a manufacturing capital of the world, and all independent unions are banned.

In Mexico, where this woman had her hands ripped away from her, unions are theoretically allowed to organize and participate in strike actions. In fact, though, all worker activism has to be approved by the local government, which is more often than not in a corrupt alliance with local businesses.

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by pjmlp on Friday June 12, 2015 @02:26PM (#9707671)
That is why we should pay with our wallets and try to buy goods (if possible) from countries where governments allow their citizens to have proper working conditions.

Maybe if enough people do this, the remaining countries pay attention and try to improve the conditions.

It is a kind of utopian dream, but better than pretending that the shiny TV isn't a product from slavery.

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by sogen on Friday June 12, 2015 @02:37PM (#9707738)
good luck finding an union in Mexico.

In fact, a recent Mexican law fordibs "people grouping together".

And outsourcing is now legal btw, thanks to another new law. So, any benefits mexicans had they are gone too.

And good luck living with a settlement of USD 1,200 (unique payment)

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by EliRivers on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:58PM (#9708825)
the logic of raw capitalism suggests otherwise

The logic of raw capitalism concerns private ownership of the means of production. That's all. I can give many examples of state-owned enterprises over the years treating their employees in just such an abominable way.

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by tzs on Saturday June 13, 2015 @04:06AM (#9710294)
Isn't the instructors point largely undermined by the fact that making nuts by taking hammer and chisel to a block of metal is not how nuts are generally actually made? Here's how nuts are actually made [1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kidWBeyOMA0

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by hliyan on Saturday June 13, 2015 @04:54AM (#9710390)
Think of the nut as a metaphor that can apply to any engineering job that the manager doesn't have to get his hands dirty with. I think that was the point.
Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by DanBC on Saturday June 13, 2015 @04:44AM (#9710378)
The point is that there is a right way to do things, and a wrong way to do things, and engineers give instructions so they better be careful about what they're asking people to do.

I've had to metaphorically chisel plenty of nuts from a solid block of metal because of some instruction from an engineer somewhere.

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by Gigablah on Saturday June 13, 2015 @04:38AM (#9710364)
No need for the "well-actually", that's not the point. You might as well question whether engineers will be ordering other people to make nuts in the first place.
Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by fweespeech on Friday June 12, 2015 @12:32PM (#9706921)
I think this is unreasonable simply because industrial accidents do happen and they aren't 100% preventable, much like car accidents. There should be [large] amounts of financial compensation [like $2.5 million, or about 10x what she'd have made at $400/month for 50 years] but "most of the gross profits" and "jail time" is ridiculous.

https://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html

> 3.3 per 100,000 in the US die

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/osh_12042014.htm

> Over half of the more than 3.0 million private industry injury and illness cases reported in 2013 were of a more serious nature that involved days away from work, job transfer, or restriction (DART cases). These cases occurred at a rate of 1.7 cases per 100 full-time workers, a statistically significant decrease from 2012.

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

> Fatalities per 100,000 Licensed Drivers

> 15.84 in 2012, 23.21 in 1994

There are, frankly, far more dangerous for-profit machines that people happily refrain from suggesting those sorts of penalties for.

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by gnu8 on Friday June 12, 2015 @12:50PM (#9707057)
Why not jail time? If someone designs an unsafe process, doesn't put guards on the machines to save a buck, or eliminates safety procedures to increase output, that is morally as reprehensible as if that person held the knife. I think it should be treated as an assault.

Edit: I see this situation as more analogous to drunk driving than a simple car accident. We certainly do jail people when they unintentionally injure someone because they were drunk. It would be reasonable jail someone who prioritizes profit over human life and causes an injury as a result.

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by johnchristopher on Friday June 12, 2015 @01:05PM (#9707163)
Isn't the whole ISO business and industry standard practices put in place to prevent that and protect everyone: workers from getting injured on the job, bosses from having to pay enormous amount of money as compensation (the insurance will kick in if the company got his ISO and stuff right) and the insurance raking in money for forcing the workplace to be safer ? (I know reality isn't that rosy but that's the objective, right ?)
Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by Lawtonfogle on Friday June 12, 2015 @01:18PM (#9707248)
>that is morally as reprehensible as if that person held the knife. I think it should be treated as an assault.

Are you guilty for buying a cheaper produce when child labor was used to produce it? Does your knowledge of the abuse going into making it cheaper matter?

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by task_queue on Friday June 12, 2015 @02:01PM (#9707530)
You are knowingly and directly allowing a child slave driver to profit from your purchase.

Where exactly do you absolve yourself of guilt in that transaction?

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by gohrt on Friday June 12, 2015 @01:24PM (#9707290)
Absolutely.
Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by s73v3r on Friday June 12, 2015 @12:43PM (#9707012)
I don't think it's unreasonable. If the costs of these accidents are high, then they'll invest in making their processes safer. There is absolutely no excuse for having a machine like that in use.
Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by fweespeech on Friday June 12, 2015 @01:13PM (#9707218)
1) 10x the lifetime salary of a worker is high.

2) Nothing is 100% reliable or safe. We are lucky to have a 1.7% rate of serious injury/fatality in the US on a full time worker per year situation. You aren't going to be able to reduce that significantly. Operating heavy machines is dangerous.

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by EliRivers on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:53PM (#9708797)
We are lucky to have a 1.7% rate of serious injury/fatality in the US on a full time worker per year situation.

Where did that figure come from? That would indicate that if you work full-time for forty years, you've got a roughly fifty-fifty chance of serious injury or fatality (or about a thirty percent chance over twenty years).

That seems far, far too high. Is this a particular kind of worker? I'm sure I'd notice if about half of all employees didn't make it to retirement without being killed or seriously injured.

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by fweespeech on Saturday June 13, 2015 @12:09AM (#9709832)
Did you not read my first comment?

Perhaps I was using a different definition than you were expecting but 'serious injury' to me means serious enough that it impacts your ability to perform your job, at least temporarily.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/osh_12042014.htm

Injuries and illnesses by type of case Over half of the more than 3.0 million private industry injury and illness cases reported in 2013 were of a more serious nature that involved days away from work, job transfer, or restriction (DART cases). These cases occurred at a rate of 1.7 cases per 100 full-time workers, a statistically significant decrease from 2012. (See table 7.) The rates for the two components of DART cases--cases involving days away from work and cases requiring job transfer or restriction--was unchanged at 1.0 and 0.7 case per 100 workers, respectively, in 2013. Other recordable cases--those not involving days away from work, job transfer, or restriction--accounted for the remaining 1.4 million injury and illness cases in 2013 and was unchanged at a rate of 1.6 cases per 100 full-time workers.

The TRC injury and illness incidence rate remained highest in 2013 among mid-size private industry establishments (those employing between 50 and 249 workers) and lowest among small establishments (those employing fewer than 11 workers). (See table 3 and chart 2.)

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by s73v3r on Friday June 12, 2015 @02:15PM (#9707612)
"10x the lifetime salary of a worker is high."

So? Losing a limb is huge.

"Nothing is 100% reliable or safe. We are lucky to have a 1.7% rate of serious injury/fatality in the US on a full time worker per year situation. You aren't going to be able to reduce that significantly. Operating heavy machines is dangerous."

And this is an incentive for employers to keep up maintenance and make sure that their workers are properly trained. And to not do what happened in this story, which is to try to get people to cut corners so they can make a couple more units.

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by Erwin on Friday June 12, 2015 @02:47PM (#9707808)
Would you apply this to software engineering, and if not why not?

Should the engineer that was responsible for some XSS flaw 3 years ago used today to extract personal information (which in turn can be used for identity theft) be personally required to pay damages? Should a peer that reviewed and approved their code, and maybe the sysadmin that deployed it and manage who run the projects and didn't use all possible security controls?

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by s73v3r on Friday June 12, 2015 @07:39PM (#9709214)
There is a difference, and it's that losing a limb can mean an end to one's ability to support themselves. Especially with cases like this one.
Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by ci5er on Saturday June 13, 2015 @10:14AM (#9711054)
As an analogy - what's the difference?

What if the error was in the machine's control system logic?

Should, or should not, the production tool (and software) be held accountable for what may have been ill advised use of the machine? (Reaching inside to seat the metal sheet sounds like a dodgy move. Bad design? Broken machine? Stupid operator?)

When tragedy strikes, we, as moral animals, want to assign blame. Seek justice. Maybe even retribution.

Unfortunately, our justice-seeking missiles are rarely a precision instrument, and the ultimate cause of the accident may have been well away from the floor of the accident itself. It might have been the software engineer. Who knows. But the question (as a hypothetical) remains -- if it WAS the software engineer for the control system of the widget-stamping thingie used at LG's factory in Mexico, should that engineer be held accountable?

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by err4nt on Friday June 12, 2015 @01:10PM (#9707198)
if the reward for losing body parts is high, people will find a way to make it happen to collect the reward! No matter how much you reward them, it can never be so much as to ever be an incentive to somebody.
Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by johnchristopher on Friday June 12, 2015 @01:45PM (#9707410)
Ah! But then the factory builder will be forced to build safer factories to prevent workers from injuring themselves and ruining the owners.

/s

Re:When I lost my hands making flatscreens I can't afford, n... by jahewson on Friday June 12, 2015 @01:57PM (#9707503)
It's grossly simplistic to assume that a single person is somehow responsible for deliberately designing a known-to-be deficient system. Hindsight is always 20:20 and safety is one of those things that improves over time as accidents occur and measures are taken to prevent their reoccurance. Just think of how many safety features a modern car has: were 1980's cars criminally unsafe - no, they simply hadn't yet incorporated lessons yet to be learnt and technologies yet to be invented.

There's a huge grey area too, as workers often ignore safety rules or bypass them to save time. An accident with a machine might be due to a worker failing to operate it correctly or to double-check that some mechanism is correctly engaged. It might be the fault of a mechanic who has incorrectly maintained the machine. It might be a flaw in the design of the machine, which could not be foreseen. It might be a fault with the machine due to a supplier, e.g. inferior bolts. It might be the fault of a fellow worker, who forgot to perform a safety check - should we throw them in jail? Whatever the case, the employer should compensate the worker - and do so justly - but the issue of the employer's criminal responsibility is complex indeed.

From a legal standpoint it's vital to distinguish between someone who unwittingly designs something unsafe, having followed reasonable and standard practice versus someone who is negligent and actively ignores the safety of others. Criminal negligence exists and is prosecuted, but it's important to realise that accidents can and do happen.