Got offered a full-time job in the tech industry with (gaaasp pension!) outside of Dublin, 5 minutes from my front door, with better salary, bonuses and healthcare. Things can work out well (and I really don't mean to sound patronizing here) with patience and a bit of luck.

While it seems to have become the trend to rail against traditional 40 hour/week jobs, the stability they can offer it extremely enticing to people with families. Eevee lives with 3 other grown adults and no children.

As someone looking to make the jump from a traditional job to financial independence (and self employment), I've noticed that people like Tim Ferris and Ramit Sethi all have one thing in common: no children. They are able to take the risks they can because when they fail, it's only on them.

With kids and a house, it's no longer the case. The people I follow who have successfully made the transition (Mr. Money Mustahce, Simple Programmer) have all used the traditional job as a means of support until they were ready to launch.

Also, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with just wanting to put in 40 hours and go home.

Yes, it does feel 'transitional' but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I really like the company that I now work for, and I still have time to work on 'side projects' at home whenever I feel like it. It's also a hell of a lot stressful. I have the ability to 'let go' of work stress a lot easier than ever before.

(I kid you not, these are often listed as perks in tech job ads)

Obviously startups are not the place to look for a pension but I haven't even heard of established companies in tech offering them.

Seems like a dead-end career if you care about retiring and sending your kids to a decent school (if that's what they want). My grandfather-in-law was set for life when he retired as a mechanical engineer. I'm in my mid-30s and I don't see my career ever ending and my financial future seems like it will always be at risk no matter how I invest and manage my savings.

What kind of company, might I ask, offers such a rare thing?

These days its better handled by a federal/social investment fund that all companies contribute to and then pays out to each individual. But that's basically social security.

I'm sorry but you cant just go on to HN and make stuff up.

You pay 20% on the first €33,800 income and only 40% on income over €33,800 if single.

You pay 20% on the first €42,800 income and only 40% on income over €42,800 if Married with one income.

You pay 20% on the first €67,600 income and only 40% on income over €67,600 if Married with two incomes.

You pay 20% on the first €37,800 income and only 40% on income over €37,800 if a single parent.

thats without even going into property tax which could also be taken out of your income (and probably water tax soon)

The government has deliberately made the "income" taxes so complicated with 3 major different variables, and plenty of other minor nuances dependent on the persons circumstance

In my case for 2014:

----

Gross Pay €32,876.69

Income Tax €4,941.44

USC €1,620.17

PRSI €1,315.08

Net Pay €25,000

----

Thats for tax year 2014 (wasn't married yet, own company director), any euros earned above this I would have had to pay a rate of 50%+ tax (income+usc+prsi),

This year it is a little less (few hundred euro) due to getting married and budget 2015 being a tiny bit more forgiving.

You have ignored PRSI and USC and ignored that company directors lose a good chunk of their tax credits (and to add insult to injury no longer qualify for full welfare when things go bad!) for bothering to start a company, I suppose you work for someone else and do not comprehend how toxic the tax regime is towards small businesses. Revenue views all small business and sole traders with absolute disdain the EXPECT them all too be crooked and ASSUME you are guilty of tax fraud and place the onus on you to PROVE you are innocent of any tax misdoings (which costs time and accounting money)...

There's a UK one here, if you'd like to compare: http://listentotaxman.com/

(Both are very simple, it's 10 seconds to fill in the form.)

Then, the EU went back to them and told them they couldn't keep doing this, and very soon (is it 2016?) they will rack up corporate tax and make a fortune. And if you're Google, you built a large office and hired thousands of people, you're not going to leave anytime soon.

Plenty of people have said that about other employers in the past and come into work one day to find the doors locked.

You think? I don't think big business tends to fall into the sunk cost fallacy like we do. It may take a year to move out, but if they save no money in Ireland over the US, why stay?

What is happening, rightly so, is the dismantling of some mechanisms which allowed large corporations to avoid paying the corporation tax at all. I think, though not sure, that this includes dismantling the double-irish arrangement where companies declared the majority of their income as expenses for licensing the product/brand etc from a parent company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

To expand on this: one can operate as a sole trader company, and enjoy the 19% flat income tax rate. You can also register your company for VAT, and then claim back the VAT on company purchases.

The only other cost is ~$270 / ~240 EUR / ~180 GBP per month in social insurance taxes.

I've been here for the last five years, and the low cost of living (very low cost outside of Warsaw) combined with low taxes makes Poland a very forgiving place to be when your first few side businesses inevitably fail.

(for that matter, the startup community here in Warsaw, centred somewhat around Reaktor - http://reaktorwarsaw.com - is really picking up steam)

If you do what I do - remote consulting for clients in the UK and USA - and you have the talent to charge western rates, you can build a sizeable nest egg in next to no time.

Of course, you must be genuinely living abroad to apply for this. This means either spending enough time outside of the US (> 330 days in a tax year, if I recall correctly) or have enough proof that you are really living abroad (things like primary residence in your name, bills, bank accounts, mortgage, insurance, kids at school -- regular every day stuff).

Now if you want to game the system and just "kind of" live abroad in order to take advantage of the income exemption, that's a different story.

I know about being an expat and how to avoid SOME of the taxes. Point is, unless you make under that limit and don't spend more than a month per year in the US, you are liable for US taxes. They give credit for foreign taxes paid, but you'll basically be paying the US income tax rates when it's all done. Not to mention the sheer stupidity of having to file in the first place.

On personal income. It sounds like the UK's "IR35" loophole - if you leave the money in the company you don't have to pay tax on that. So you can accumulate capital in the company.

Agreed, it always feels scandalous to me whenever I hear this fact.

No idea how it works in practise. I known plenty of Americans who have settled in Poland for a good portion of their lives, so it must be possible to overcome the burden.

Maybe it's one of those things where, as long as you can afford to pay a good accountant (and you really should be able to afford it in Poland), they take the pain away for you?

The penalty is 0.1666% per month you didn't have qualifying health insurance for any 3+ month period(s) you didn't have it, e.g., if you didn't have insurance in the months of February-April, you'd be assessed a fine of 0.5% of your income.

I mention that there are ways to avoid some of the taxes. I've BEEN an expat so I know how it works.

I also know that I still had to pay taxes even when I stayed out of country long enough just due to income levels. Additionally, with all of my family in the US it was pretty hard to stay out of country enough to avoid taxes.

Am I saying you shouldn't move out of the country? NO! I loved living in Europe. And if you live in a low cost of living country you will save lots of money if you get a US salary or contracts. What I am saying is that as an American you'll likely end up still paying US taxes and you'll still have to file with the IRS every year.

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Forei...

If you can structure your work and business correctly, I'm sure you can bypass such taxes. Assuming you don't want to renounce your nationality!

And as an American you would still receive the support of the US government in case of war or other disasters.

You have to learn the Cyrillic alphabet on top of learning a Slavic language though! I tease, I tease.

Isn't Bulgaria due to join the Schengen area pretty soon? Inside the next couple of years, at least?

  Isn't Bulgaria due to join the Schengen area pretty soon? Inside the next couple of years, at least?

The problem is that both countries are still considered too corrupt for inclusion into the Schengen treaty. Romania seems to have cleaned up their act better then Bulgaria, but there are still grave doubts that the countries behave according to the treaty and don't, for example, sell visas to people, who are not eligible for them.

To the best of my knowledge, both countries are still on an waiting list, but given the current anti immigrant sentiments in most of central Europe this could take a few more years minimum.

Note that I'm not singling out the countries as crooked I'm just stating facts. Organized crime, for example, is still a huge problem in Bulgaria and corruption is still a huge problem in both countries. [1]

[1] http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results

Off the top of my head:

- The state's still transitioning from a post-communist economy.

- Wages are very low.

- Relatively high emigration rate "brain drain" (although people are starting to return).

- More supply, less demand.

You can buy a brand new apartment close to the centre for somewhere around $2000 per square metre / $200 per square foot. Depending on how your housing market work, that's either scandalously high, or shockingly low.

It is however, very very affordable as soon as you start earning a reasonable wage.

Remember, the average wage in Poland (according to GUS) is around $12750 yearly, so a $550/mo apartment (the average, from what I know amongst friends) in Warsaw is quite expensive for the average Pole.

So, why are wages so low? Well, we'd like to know as well :).

The only problem is communication with government, rather impossible without polish.

Very true - and very difficult at first, if your Polish is rather poor.

That said, my Polish was terrible, and I managed to bluster through it.

I recently helped an acquaintance through the process, and it turned out I'd done it the wrong way around. First hire a good accountant (mine costs slightly more than usual at $100/mo, thanks to processing many many many invoices/mo), sign over power of attorney for submitting tax documents, and they'll take care of the rest for you.

I think Warsaw's great. Plenty of green spaces, lots of child-friendly environments, and it's pretty easy - if you choose - to find yourself living in a community of similarly-aged kids where they all look out for one another.

The only downside I can think of is navigating stuff like vaccinations, doctors, and general bureaucracy. The majority you'll be fine with, but some working Polish - and having Polish friends - will be helpful as English is in short supply in some vital areas.

In fact, they're bad enough that I actively campaign against them.

Whoops, turned into a rant there by accident, sorry about that :)

http://www.upsoni.com/blog/?preload=virtual_trade_zone.txt

I'd say, so far, Georgia is one of the most capitalist states in Europe.

That's why I moved out of core tech and became a librarian (which is still pretty tech) in a more regional city. Lower wages but slightly more affordable houses mean I might still have a chance at giving my kids a mortgage one day..

You expect to walk into an 80k a year job straight out of college? Everyone has to start somewhere. If I was a graduate, I'd much rather be working sub 30k for IBM than sub 40k for Dublin's next Groupon killer/Airbnb for iguanas.

And I can walk into an 80k job outside of Dublin. Considering the cost of living in Dublin vs the salary for tech grads versus... anywhere else in the world, you'd be crazy to stay.

London, Singapore, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Paris... all way, way more expensive than Dublin.

But if you can find a job that will pay 80k euro equivalent to a graduate with a computing degree from a Dublin university and zero industry experience, you should definitely take it, 100%, and I wish you the best of luck.

Describing people who want to do this as 'idiots' was too harsh of me. It just makes me sad to see young people leaving the country.

From a brief google, Tokyo looks comparable to Dublin, but the others, yes. However, I wouldn't take a job for 30k living in any of those cities either, that's just nuts. However, it is absolutely possible to get jobs in places where your ratio of cost of living to salary is better than it is in Dublin, even before you factor in how much more you would take home before you end up paying the nuts VAT rates, PAYE, PRSI, USC charges that push you into almost 53% tax at 32k euro. I moved to Edinburgh when I graduated, and forgetting about my salary, my rent is a good 300 euro less a month, my transport bills are lower, I live in a nicer flat than I did before, and general costs of living are lower than they were in Dublin. I have more disposable income than I would have had on the same salary, and the ballpark offers that I have received here are the same as, if not better than home.

The reddit thread in [1] has plenty of people who came out at over 80k euro starting salaries. I'm not saying that everyone can get it, but there are some available.

http://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/1oiwc2/ne...

I ended up moving to Canada where I earn the equivalent of 36k euro working in a startup. I would say that living expenses are comparable.

In my case I could move from Dublin to Silicon Valley and make 30% to 50% more cash and pay way less in taxes, I would be an idiot to not consider it.

Anyways to answer your question, play around with calculator http://download.pwc.com/ie/budget-2015/index.html

A single 30 year old (average age of HNers?) earning €100K will receive €58,869 after all the income taxes

From this money he/she will have to then pay water tax, local property tax (if renting the landlord will pass it on), VAT of 23% on almost everything and so on, and god help you if you buy a car!

---

41% is the highest tax band BUT there is also USC and PRSI tax which needs to be paid which brings up the highest rate to above 50%

basically there are a lot of hidden taxes and it is a very complex tax system which allows the government to make the figures appear palatable

I do sometimes wonder what kind of self-awareness people have of their status.

http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-developer...

A lot of HN readers are from US and would be shocked at the tax rates here (on everything) and they further shocked as to how little we get to see for our tax money (no free healthcare etc)

The US always appears to have a much lower tax rate but once you compare similar lifestyles things are not as different as you might imagine.

BUT here in Ireland the government has made it an artform in introducing indirect hidden taxes which on a quick glance one might miss and quickly add up. for example: Americans would be shocked not only at our petrol prices but the total cost of running a car (and no the public transport is not great) for example and property taxes have come in and are widely expected to rise year on year and will probably be at US levels in 10 years.

I have been to the US many of times and traveled across almost all the states so it is not just case of "grass is greener on other side"

What a crappy system, to simultaneously make it great for corporations and bad for workers.

There have to be some other major upsides that I'm not understanding. It's a pretty country, that's something :)

I just put it into the calculator and the number for 2015 is: 59,019

This results in an effective tax rate of 40% approximately (this is with a property tax and water tax)

The Property tax being so low is one of the causes of the housing bubble. And some people blow their (yearly) water tax on a night at the pub.

And believe me income taxes are not that much better in other places (or there are other issues)

Yeah, healthcare could be better, but it's not a big issue (as opposed to something like the USA)

source: http://www.penize.cz/kalkulacky/vypocet-ciste-mzdy

15000*27/12 = 33750CZK/month = 42.5% taxation

Add VAT 21%, petrol tax 52%...

Also source on that petrol tax? According to http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/uk-czech-tax-idUKKB... it seems to be one of the lower in the EU, as the cut would have "put Czech petrol taxes below minimum rates allowed in the European Union"

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it1.html#section3

Under: "Tax Rates and Tax Bands"

VAT:

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/guide/vat-rates.html#sectio...

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/rates/current-historic-rate...

But hey look over there at the news yet another multinational setting up to launder/funnel money onto somewhere warmer and seems like a housing bubble is re-inflating again.

--------

edit: last year i arranged my salary to remain under the high tax rate band Gross: €32.6 K Net (after PAYE,PRSI,USC): €25 K

The accountant said that above this €32K line i would have lost about ~53 cents in taxes for each €1.00 earned by ending up in the highest tax band...

So I left the extra money in company (corporation tax 12.5%) and will spread out my wages over few years, tho is risky practice if the company gets sued and loses the money.

There is an option to pay into a pension but with the pension funds being so mismanaged and the government actively robbing all pensions and destroying the pension reserve that would be downright stupid.

According to Wikipedia, it does:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ire...

"The taxation of earnings is progressive"

Which makes the OP's post rather confusing.

Does any country out there not tax progressively?

I just can't imagine it - "Great, you got a pay rise! Now you get to take home less, until your pay rises by another $5,000!"

Edit: On second reading, I think I understand what the OP is talking about: leaving money in the company they operate, which pays out (I guess through dividends?) at a lesser tax rate than if it were paid out directly as wages. I'm pretty sure this is a standard technique in the rest of the world, and not particularly unique to Ireland.

  Does any country out there not tax progressively?

  I just can't imagine it - "Great, you got a pay rise! Now 
  you get to take home less, until your pay rises by 
  another $5,000!"

This misunderstanding of how tax brackets is so widely pervasive that I can only assume it's the work of enemy action: people who want to reduce income taxes, or to move the tax burden to the poor by implementing a flat tax rate.

If he is not hurting for cash and he could defer it until next year (or year after that) with no penalty at all and (arguably) negligible risk, thus paying the lower personal income tax rate on that dollar, why not do it?

I don't see what part is misunderstood. If you're being paid by your employer, obviously you want to take the raise regardless of higher taxes. If you are your own employer, both entities are paying taxes and each dollar of taxes paid is coming out of your own pocket.

The tax system here puts a huge disincentive to work hard and earn a lot, at least there is an option if you have your own company to defer and stretch your wages over longer period BUT that comes with all sorts of risk since IT IS NOT YOUR MONEY but company money and corporation tax.

> each dollar of taxes paid (by either entity) is coming out of your own pocket

You can keep it in pocket A, the corporation, and pay taxes once (on profits only, I guess), or move it to pocket B and pay taxes a second time also, at a much higher rate (and on overall income, again a larger basis than it would be to count up personal profits.) If you can replace some personal expenses with corporate expenses, end-around pocket B completely, now your business has also made less profit, so pays less corporate tax. I am not a tax accountant (or even remotely skilled in taxes) and this is not tax advice, but it makes pretty good sene to me. Certainly some part less than all of what I suggest would be considered illegal tax dodging or corporate malfeasance.

Sounds like a good incentive for CEOs/majority owners of small businesses to live frugally and to refrain from looting their corporate coffers excessively. Sure, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, but it also seems very clear to make the case that two whole birds in the bush are worth more than 0.94 birds in the hand.

You are thinking like an employee.

If the money does not actually leave the company and go into his pocket, the only taxes that would need to be paid are those (low) corporate taxes.

Of what value is money you can't have in your pocket and spend, of course, is an exercise for the reader, but presumably it could be paid out as personal income over a greater number of years (if the company survives that long) without ever paying $0.53/1.00 in personal income taxes on any portion of that money.

If you are employed you have no choice but to pay for private insurance:

* Family with 2 kids ~ €2600 per year

* Singe person ~ €500-€1000 per year (dependant on age etc)

Tho the costs for health insurance are rising of course...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

I'm a bit of a socialist living in the U.S. - I believe in higher taxes on higher earnings and universal healthcare - but what in all that is holy do you get for your tax money??

The OP's overstating their case a bit, see the tax calculator here: http://services.deloitte.ie/tc/ (you'll get close to 60k in your pocket from 100k.)

The wikipedia article's pretty comprehensive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ire...

This punitive tax regime makes you question as to why bother working longer and harder and kills any will to start new projects since you know you will be robbed if you ever (in the unlikely minority) become successful

AND to add insult to injury you do not get much for your taxes and from your after tax income you endup paying all sorts of further hidden taxes just to live here.

Honestly, I'm genuinely not scandalised about the rates you've listed; they seem pretty standard for Europe.

This punitive tax regime makes you question as to why bother working longer and harder and kills any will to start new projects since you know you will be robbed if you ever (in the unlikely minority) become successful

A top rate of 50% isn't that scandalous. It's a lot, and there are plenty of means to reduce it. Personally, I'm far more concerned about getting the point where the top tax rate is a serious problem for me in the first place.

AND to add insult to injury you do not get much for your taxes and from your after tax income you endup paying all sorts of further hidden taxes just to live here.

I fear that if you think living elsewhere is going to result in a major change on your life from the tax rate alone, the options are few and far between. I've heard that you either love or hate Dubai, for instance.

(of course, there are always exceptions on prices of e.g. clothing, computing goods etc. etc. Always idly tempting to imagine moving somewhere that doesn't have VAT!)

Frankly, not much. I was born and raised in Ireland, and left a few years ago from Scotland. In comparison to Scotland (and the UK in general), the quality of public services in Ireland is a joke.