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Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by niuzeta on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:06PM (#9687505)
The non-fundamental shift about software is not that it's creating quality jobs at the cost of medium-quality jobs. It's also not that we are creating robots that will replace low-quality human workers. Because we still believe that as low-quality jobs go, higher-quality jobs will somehow appear. (you may not agree with this, even I am personally sceptical, but that's not the point I'm about to argue)

But to get to the higher-quality jobs, you generally need experience. Not many employers are willing to hire someone and put him in a responsible position based off their potential alone. It follows, then, that we need substantial number of entry level positions to, so to speak, open the door for future potent workers.

But those doors are closing at an alarming rate.

Consider law firms. Discovery work(going through past records to find cases of relevance, law clauses of relevance) that used to be the "first year" work, is almost exclusively done by software. It's cheaper and more accurate. We may still need more quality lawyers, but as we remove the uses for inexperienced lawyers, we are decreasing the number of future experienced lawyers.

Translation used to be a very non-trivial work. Not just for heavy-publishing prose or fiction, but even for simple phrases, if the need was great enough, we would hire an entry level translator. Now we would generally use Google translate for a phrase or two because it was "good enough" at a marginal price.

The problem for prospect high-earning society isn't that software is eating jobs. As long as we are vain and greedy to aspire for higher quality, we will have those sophisticated jobs. The problem is that we are eating entry-level jobs, and in turn, creating an artificial scarce supply of "experienced" workers.

And those "experienced" workers, now that they have put their foot into the door, and with the huge demand for work to be done, will enjoy the job market(aren't we all, as developers?), but what of those that are left, for no fault of their own?

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by jerf on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:35PM (#9687729)
This is in the class of problems that naturally corrects itself over time. When your firm can't hire anyone with experience, and there's no entry-level jobs, it will discover the same solution to that problem that has been discovered any number of times in any number of other situations already: Mentoring and something that looks like apprenticeship.

Compared to the prospect of there being no job at all because software ate the whole thing, at the societal level this is barely interesting at all. Yeah, it sucks if you get caught in that moment where the problem hasn't quite become acute enough for the field to realize it needs to do apprenticeships instead of expecting experience, but, well, there isn't necessarily a better solution than waiting for the field to figure it out.

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by random28345 on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:45PM (#9687787)
> When your firm can't hire anyone with experience, and there's no entry-level jobs, it will discover the same solution to that problem that has been discovered any number of times in any number of other situations already

Yes, hire a temporary worker with an H-1B visa or outsource it outright.

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by CyberDildonics on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:58PM (#9687871)
Guess what? There are other countries with people in them that can program too. Everyone has to compete with that fact. Don't be a hypocrite that dismisses people complaining about Mexicans, software, and robots yet gets upset that people from other countries are playing on the same field.

No one is entitled to be the only person that gets to do a job that many other people can do.

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by random28345 on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @04:18PM (#9688284)
> There are other countries with people in them that can program too.

I didn't say anything that disagrees with this statement, I simply said that for the last decade the way to increase profits has been to bring in migrant workers from overseas, and lay off skilled domestic workers, and there's no reason wh the approach won't continue to be the same in the face of a hypothetical domestic skills shortage.

In fact, the idea that there are "other countries with people [...] that can program" is a strong disincentive to have an apprenticship/training program, and reinforces that the primary solution to expanding hiring is going to continue to be H-1B visas and not education.

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by stcredzero on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:43PM (#9687772)
Shouldn't an economist be able to figure out when such a phenomenon is happening? It seems like this should be quantifiable. It seems like a 21st century government should be looking for these situations to be arising with some regularity now, and that a "template" program for helping mentoring/apprenticeship practices to come about faster might make sense.

(Modulo one's faith in the (in)competence of government interventions and its degree. obLibertarian objection noted -- so please expand and not just repeat if you are commenting in that direction.)

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by anigbrowl on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @03:11PM (#9687951)
Yes, and in countries like Germany there's a three-way relationship between government, employers, and unions, who seem to start from a broad assumption of being on the same team. That relationship is much more fraught in the US, where relations between business and unions are historically antagonistic (with both sides deserving some blame for this), and you have a large contingent of people that are convinced government shouldn't exist and is fundamentally incompetent to solve problems (but often simultaneously a highly effective tyrannical entity).
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by stcredzero on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @07:44PM (#9689267)
a large contingent of people that are convinced government shouldn't exist and is fundamentally incompetent to solve problems (but often simultaneously a highly effective tyrannical entity).

Well, yes. Nutters are louder everywhere. Not sure if it's worse over here. Not sure if there's as much pandering to the nutters all across the political here as elsewhere. On trips abroad, I did detect that many Europeans were aghast at our politics in the early 2000s and were still (but for different reasons) as of 2014.

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by x0x0 on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @04:34PM (#9688373)
No, they won't. Counterexample: Engineering shortage!
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by int3 on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:18PM (#9687615)
Interesting points.

> The problem is that we are eating entry-level jobs, and in turn, creating an artificial scarce supply of "experienced" workers.

On the other hand, it is easier than ever to get cheap, basic education in a variety of things, with the Internet and MOOCs making information widely available. So entry-level jobs may be less necessary these days. On the other hand, it means the people who can afford to spend time acquiring this knowledge without receiving pay will have a bigger advantage than ever. Yet another argument for basic income, I guess.

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by sanderjd on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:24PM (#9687653)
But education isn't what you need to be an experienced worker, you need experience. I think the parent's point is a great one, and would add to it that things are headed toward a glut of well-educated but nonetheless inexperienced people.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by int3 on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @03:15PM (#9687963)
Fair enough. But experience can be garnered outside companies, and the Internet is making that easier, too: OSS development, nonprofit / pro bono work, etc.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by sanderjd on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @07:18PM (#9689152)
Absolutely true, but "well, we've replaced entry-level jobs with working for free" is a terrible answer.

Also, would edit my original reply if I could to say that things seem to be heading this direction, not that they definitely or inevitably are.

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by int3 on Wednesday June 10, 2015 @01:14AM (#9690196)
It is only a terrible answer without basic income, which was the other point I was trying to make.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by s73v3r on Wednesday June 10, 2015 @01:27PM (#9693836)
How does nonprofit/pro bono work help when you're trying to eat?
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by niuzeta on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:49PM (#9687813)
One of the most popular questions I hear being asked about MOOC is, "Will employers recognize this as a standard university education". I think, in a way, it's telling that question gets asked so frequently, as if looking for an assurance that MOOC will not be a waste of time, or just as good as traditional education.

When employers use education as a minimum bar, it may often be the case that the actual bar is the history as qualification, rather than the actual content of the information. It's similar to how a degree in theory would prove the employer that the person has some discipline to finish a degree.

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by ctdonath on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:46PM (#9687792)
That's assuming there's any incentive to pursue that free education. A large segment of the population has no interest in working save for the fact that if they don't they'll starve; these are not self-motivated people who seek out academic pursuits in their spare time.

Entry-level jobs are absolutely necessary, first for learning to get to work on time daily, then for the job-specific education needed to work up to something actually productive and which cannot be simply taught by an independent "expert".

Those advocating "basic income" need to go look up the phrase "going Galt" (upshot: given enough unproductive leeching off the productive, the latter are apt to say "screw this" and disappear from society).

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by vezzy-fnord on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:55PM (#9687848)
Those advocating "basic income" need to go look up the phrase "going Galt" (upshot: given enough unproductive leeching off the productive, the latter are apt to say "screw this" and disappear from society).

"Going Galt" appears to primarily be a fantasy scenario. People largely tend to consumption rates which are smoothed and that factor in long-term expectations of income as opposed to marginally increasing rates that follow short-term signals like a linear input-output device. So it seems that tax burdens alone are not enough to cause massive "dropping out of society", as rational actors have determined that participation in consumer society in light of regulations and other externalities is still preferable to the costs of off-the-grid living. Not that taxation can't cause disincentive, but it's more complicated than just that.

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by dllthomas on Wednesday June 10, 2015 @01:41AM (#9690277)
More than off-the-grid, you see expatriation. Still not in tremendous numbers, for the most part.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by s73v3r on Wednesday June 10, 2015 @01:33PM (#9693874)
The entire point is that automation is taking away those entry level jobs. Without those, people aren't going to be able to get a foothold into the workforce, and won't be able to become productive members of society.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by rayiner on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:34PM (#9687723)
While predictive coding (using machine learning to identify potentially interesting documents in discovery) exists, it is not common. Armies of first year associates have mostly been replaced by armies of contract lawyers, not machines. I imagine that's true in a lot of other industries. Entry level jobs pay less and have less prospect for growth simply because labor supply continues to grow while the economy and consequently demand is pretty stagnant.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by sixtypoundhound on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @03:19PM (#9687985)
Worse, we seem to be eroding the nature of those entry level roles so that they don't teach the broader parts of a role.

Was I excited to get an analyst job right out of school for $28K/year (many years ago), after earning a math degree from a prestigious school? Uh, not really. But...

- Only about 50% of my job was actually excel nerf-herding

- The other 50% was a mix of research projects and building the department budget...this allowed me to meet everyone in the building and learn a little bit about how their area worked (and how the company made money)

- Better yet, I was one of three analysts in a 50 person marketing unit...so it was expected my next role would be outside of analytics and I was trained/coached accordingly. The company put less focus on my excel wrangling skills (low value) and more on me as a future program manager or senior tech (high value).

- Ah yes...and we were sufficiently small, I had to learn how to pull my own data (SQL and some light SAS scripting)

The net result? Pretty much everyone in my 10 person class of recruits amounted to something, professionally. Most are manager/director level, about half technical, half business.

The same company today splits the same work into a couple of specialist teams, consolidated across the company, with minimal cross training. You don't join as talent, you join as an Excel monkey. And dang it, we're gonna make you a very productive Excel Monkey. No need to learn the other stuff.

The results have been disappointing...

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by hittudiv on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:10PM (#9687545)
The ultimate winners here would be the software employees in my opinion. The money flows from investors/public to the geeks. Dont know how the economy is going to work out with that though.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by task_queue on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:58PM (#9687877)
That's a false narrative. Owners and executives are the winners here. We are underpaid for the value we bring in and the industry has been caught trying to keep it that way.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by santaclaus on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:16PM (#9687594)
The software employers are probably accumulating capital at a higher rate than the software employees.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by nostrademons on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:37PM (#9687738)
Probably, but an increasing number of software employees are striking out to become software employers as well. Software is interesting in that virtually all capital is human capital, and that small changes in the environment (a shift from web to mobile, for example) can invalidate large swaths of accumulated domain knowledge.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by jules on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:15PM (#9687586)
Who were the true winners of the industrial revolution? The employees making the machines? Nah. The true winners here will be the ones that always have been and always will be the winners.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by ghaff on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:22PM (#9687644)
Maybe. There is also a lot of work going into providing tools for domain experts so that entry-level programmers aren't needed for, e.g. data visualization. So it's not clear to me that the dynamic is any different in software engineering than anywhere else.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by fixermark on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:24PM (#9687652)
I wonder where that leaves the job market, given that there will still be a need for these roles in the future (and plenty of incentive for someone to learn the roles via whatever means become available).

Are unpaid internships a symptom of this flow perhaps? They read a lot like apprenticeships (but with a significant burden of responsibility missing).

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by spanktheuser on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:50PM (#9687815)
Interesting anecdote: at a devbootcamp event, I ran into two high school graduates who skipped a traditional bachelor's in favor of three months of intensive web development training followed by a year of unpaid internships. They evaluated this as considerably less expensive than a university education while providing a comparable level of experience.

I'm not sure I agree, but it's interesting that very young people and their families are beginning to question the established educational model in such a bold fashion.

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by s73v3r on Wednesday June 10, 2015 @01:38PM (#9693916)
Only those who's family is already relatively well off, and who live in an area where these types of work are available can really do it, though. That's not a reasonable solution.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by dllthomas on Wednesday June 10, 2015 @01:35AM (#9690255)
"But to get to the higher-quality jobs, you generally need experience. Not many employers are willing to hire someone and put him in a responsible position based off their potential alone. It follows, then, that we need substantial number of entry level positions to, so to speak, open the door for future potent workers."

I've been wondering about a similar (far more narrow) dynamic around the C programming language. There are still a number of places C is the best fit, but those are increasingly in places where expert knowledge of C is required.

There are presently enough legacy projects where people can cut their teeth usefully that this isn't soon a major issue, but if we continue to displace more but not all uses of C, this could get interesting in the long term (maybe).

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by acchow on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:09PM (#9687537)
Do you have some data on this?

Also, this is a perspective I've not considered or heard of before. Thanks for that.

Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by jcromartie on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @03:08PM (#9687926)
There's no solution for this short of a revolution in free real-world education and something like apprenticeships.
Re:Software Is Eating the Job Market by k__ on Tuesday June 09, 2015 @02:10PM (#9687548)
Also, the people who make the decisions are experienced and so don't directly profit from changing anything.