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Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by rayiner on Monday May 11, 2015 @12:40PM (#9526009)
Probably, although I'll note that cy pres awards are under intense scrutiny these days in the various Courts of Appeal. Besides that, is the result unfair here? Did the average claimant even suffer $5 in economic losses?
Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by mikeash on Monday May 11, 2015 @12:44PM (#9526046)
Shouldn't the potential risk be taken into account as well? They basically disabled HTTPS for a large number of people for a significant amount of time, leaving them open to great financial risk due to compromised bank accounts and such. That roughly nobody took advantage doesn't change the fact that the risk was there.

I mean, if I fired a gun at your house but was lucky enough not to injure anybody, shouldn't my punishment still be more than the cost of fixing the bullet holes? Of course that's separate from the question of whether you should receive more than the cost of fixing the bullet holes.

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by rhino369 on Monday May 11, 2015 @12:55PM (#9526129)
That is essentially the difference between Criminal law and civil law. Civil suits are typically designed to make you whole. You get what you actually lost.

Sometimes putative damages can be awarded, which can look at the egregiousness of the actions of the plaintiff. I don't know if those are available here.

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by mikeash on Monday May 11, 2015 @12:59PM (#9526154)
Then I guess the followup questions are: why aren't criminal charges being brought, and (if they're actually not) why aren't punitive damages being awarded?
Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by rhino369 on Monday May 11, 2015 @01:47PM (#9526501)
Punitive damages would occur after any trial victory. This is just the very first step, essentially a legal accusation.

As to why the government hasn't tried to indict for criminal charges, there could be many reasons. The case might not be good. They might be waiting. They may think it's small fry stuff.

The doj doesn't go after everyone.

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by pbhjpbhj on Monday May 11, 2015 @03:11PM (#9527158)
So who is responsible in the DoJ for deciding that it's OK to let company directors do arms length crimes and they're going to look the other way.

Is there any question as to what Lenovo actually did, are they denying they exceeded their authorisation in accessing computers and MitM-ing things like bank transactions? If the facts aren't in dispute there then surely the only thing the court would need to do is work out how long the directors who authorised/oversaw [or negligently didn't oversee] this are going to be put in prison for.

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by tedunangst on Monday May 11, 2015 @03:17PM (#9527201)
Well, the CFAA has a handy little "choose your own adventure" like section listing the various naughty activities, where you could be guilty of a.2.B or a.7.A, etc. Which combo do you think Lenovo is guilty of?
Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by btdollar on Monday May 11, 2015 @08:31PM (#9528792)
What a self-serving law. All it deals with is atomic data and financial institutions. How in the hell does this ever get applied to people downloading too many webpages?
Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by tedunangst on Monday May 11, 2015 @03:12PM (#9527164)
What would the criminal charges be? The best outline for a prosecution I've seen goes something like "CFAA, mumble mumble, spying is bad." What specific law was broken? Lay out the case. For bonus points, pretend you're the defense attorney, and then outline the defense's case.
Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by mikeash on Monday May 11, 2015 @03:20PM (#9527225)
I'm not really familiar enough with the law to say.

Let's say that some company builds a bridge that doesn't match the spec, to the point that it's dangerous. Maybe it falls down if any truck weighing more than 10 tons goes over it, when it was supposed to hold 40 tons. And let's further say that this weakness was the result of intentional cost-saving measures and a complete failure to investigate their consequences. But then let's say that the fault with the bridge was discovered after a few months before any 11-40 ton trucks had gone over it, so nobody actually died.

Would that be illegal under some sort of negligence or endangerment law? It certainly seems like it ought to be. Lenovo's actions are basically equivalent, except that it was (probably) just property at risk, not lives.

It looks like endangerment is indeed a criminal offense, and it doesn't require that the harm actually happens, just that the potential was there and that it was foreseeable. Would that actually apply here?

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by tedunangst on Monday May 11, 2015 @03:46PM (#9527372)
Fair questions. Civil engineering projects may not be the best analogy, because there are some special laws in that space, but maybe consider automobile recalls. How many people went to prison because a car's brakes or ignition didn't work? Criminal product liability is pretty rare afaik.
Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by mikeash on Monday May 11, 2015 @04:03PM (#9527482)
Criminal proceedings against an entire company don't result in people going to jail, right? Holding people personally responsible is probably not appropriate with this, but holding the entire company criminally responsible and levying fines well in excess of actual damages seems reasonable.

Regarding automobile recalls, it looks like GM got hit with some fines for their ignition switch shenanigans, beyond actual damages. But it looks like this is a regulatory thing rather than a criminal thing. Maybe this is another place where special laws get in the way of generalizing.

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by CWuestefeld on Monday May 11, 2015 @04:29PM (#9527628)
Criminal proceedings against an entire company don't result in people going to jail, right?

While it seems pretty rare for this to happen, the officers of a corporation can be held criminally liable for the actions of the corp.

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by dragonwriter on Monday May 11, 2015 @04:36PM (#9527679)
They can be, but that allows criminal proceedings against the officer, it doesn't change that proceeding against the company, as such, cannot result in any individual going to jail, since the individual isn't the company (they are distinct legal persons) and one person can't be sent to prison based on another person being convicted of a crime.
Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by hurin on Monday May 11, 2015 @07:43PM (#9528597)
> What would the criminal charges be?

Not a lawyer but quoting from the document.

  COMPLAINT FOR:
  1) VIOLATION OF COMPUTER FRAUD AND ABUSE ACT (18 U.S.C. § 1030, et seq.);
  2) VIOLATION OF FEDERAL WIRETAP ACT (18 U.S.C. § 2510, et seq.);
  3) VIOLATION OF THE STORED COMMUNICATIONS ACT (18 U.S.C. § 2701, et seq.);
  4) VIOLATION OF CALIFORNIA INVASION OF PRIVACY ACT, PENAL CODE §§ 631, 637.2;
  5) VIOLATION OF CALIFORNIA BUS. & PROF. CODE § 17200, et seq.;
  6) TRESPASS TO CHATTELS;
  7) COMMON LAW FRAUD; and
  8) NEGLIGENT MISREPRESENTATION
Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by tedunangst on Monday May 11, 2015 @09:58PM (#9529131)
Thanks, though I'm a little suspicious when I see this:

  2) VIOLATION OF FEDERAL WIRETAP ACT (18 U.S.C. § 2510, et seq.);
  3) VIOLATION OF THE STORED COMMUNICATIONS ACT (18 U.S.C. § 2701, et seq.);
You'd think one or the other, no? (AFAIK Superfish didn't touch anything even remotely covered by SCA). This looks like classic "all of the torts" shotgun filing. Which makes sense for a civil case, but it's not much of a guide as to what criminal cases would be viable.
Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by Lawtonfogle on Tuesday May 12, 2015 @01:02PM (#9533144)
>Which makes sense for a civil case, but it's not much of a guide as to what criminal cases would be viable.

But that is the guide book for criminal proceedings against individuals. The prosecutor dog piles on every single charge they can and then offers a scaled down plea bargain.

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by bradleyjg on Monday May 11, 2015 @12:46PM (#9526058)
I know that outright cy pres settlements are on the outs, but are residual cy pres clauses also under the same scrutiny? If so, change that clause to the company keeps whatever is left in the compensation pool.

As for unfairness, I think the entrepreneurial class action system to punish very diffuse harms amounts to an inefficient regulatory regime and that inefficiency results in higher prices for everyone as compared to a more efficient system.

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by rayiner on Monday May 11, 2015 @01:43PM (#9526480)
Is there a more efficient system? That's not a rhetorical question. Especially for cases like these where actual damages are either speculative or small enough that they wouldn't ring the bell of government prosecutors. I think a compelling answer is: do nothing, let the reputation economy handle the situation. But the reputation economy works on information, and litigation generates a lot of very good (vetted and authenticated) information.

Re: cy pres awards, while Pearson v. NBTY (out of the 7th Circuit) did not involve a residual award, it did strongly imply that they would be unreasonable when, as here, the class members could be individually identified and compensated directly. More generally, after the 7th Circuit's recent cases on the subject, cy pres awards are low hanging fruit for objectors and plaintiffs' counsel have an incentive to structure settlements to avoid such challenges.

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by bradleyjg on Monday May 11, 2015 @03:21PM (#9527228)
Thank you for the reply.

Without writing an entire law review article in the comments, I'd say if no government (state or federal) can be bothered, given that they could almost certainly get a fine for less than $4 million (that's a lot of GS-11 man-hours) then reliance on the reputation economy seems like a good alternative.

And while discovery can be useful for getting information, in this case the information was publicized based on the workings of a different reputation economy (the security research community).

There may be some case that slip through the cracks, but I am unconvinced that the sui generis (to the US) opt-out class action mass tort system does more good than harm.

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by belorn on Monday May 11, 2015 @01:35PM (#9526409)
There is several different economic losses to calculate here, each surpassing $5.

There is the cost of removing the malware, and cleaning up any damages it caused. This is normally done by estimating how many hours a professional would spend on it, and the wages they would demand.

Second, is the for-profit claim of "TRESPASS TO CHATTELS". If someone goes and steal a car to run a taxi service, one would look at the ill-gotten gains as well as the potential economic loss the car owner might has sustained from not having access to the car. "borrowing" other peoples cars once the owner has parked it is not risk free, and the law recognize this beyond just looking at used up gasoline.

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by tedunangst on Monday May 11, 2015 @03:06PM (#9527125)
Didn't Lenovo release an update that removed the program? The relevant question for the court is probably, how many hundreds of dollars did the average Lenovo customer spend on professional Superfish removal? And the answer is probably zero.
Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by somedangedname on Monday May 11, 2015 @11:40PM (#9529474)
Uninstalling Superfish doesn't remove the dodgy root certificate that it installed (which is the dangerous bit). As per Lenovo's guide[0] that still has to be done manually.

[0] http://support.lenovo.com/us/en/product_security/superfish_u...

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by belorn on Monday May 11, 2015 @05:13PM (#9527890)
Having read several court cases, I can say I have never seen the court trying to answer the question about how much the average victim would spend on repairs. Its not a question easily answered or find evidence for, and the court do not have the ability to send out a survey.

What I do normally see is the court looking for guidelines regarding damages, and here the relevant question would be what a average person would have to pay in order to remove the malware and restore damages. A laywer could present rates of reputable repair shops has charge clients, and the defense lawyer could argue that the update helped reduce the time a professional would take.

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by tedunangst on Monday May 11, 2015 @05:48PM (#9528075)
> the relevant question would be what a average person would have to pay in order to remove the malware and restore damages

And since the malware has already been removed at no cost, the actual, not just hypothetical, answer to that question is zero.

Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by belorn on Tuesday May 12, 2015 @07:25AM (#9530878)
The removal tool still need to be downloaded and run as per lenovo's website (http://news.lenovo.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=1931&v...). The malware still exist in laptops today and a professional would have to download the file, run it, and verify the removal of the infected malware to repair the machine.
Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by superuser2 on Monday May 11, 2015 @01:31PM (#9526368)
Yes. People spent $700 on what were supposed to be their own computers, following their own wills. In fact they got computers which ignore their instructions (i.e. to fetch a webpage) and instead fetch the modified version that Lenovo's partners want them to see. The computers are not their own, they are Lenovo's. Full refunds are in order.
Re:Class action lawsuit filed against Lenovo over Superfish by ticviking on Monday May 11, 2015 @06:11PM (#9528191)
Good luck separating from the class and pursuing the claim in court. Though honestly you might have a shot if the hardware is something you could push in your local small claims. Think the "windows refund"