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Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by jackmaney on Friday May 08, 2015 @01:41PM (#9513058)
> It was unclear what his intentions were. To determine loyalty to the company, possibly.

Corporate loyalty has been dead for many, many years.

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by SEJeff on Friday May 08, 2015 @02:42PM (#9513420)
Corporate loyalty died when companies stopped paying pensions, or severely reducing pensions. Our parents always worried about pensions and corporate loyalty. In our generation, and especially technology, we make a lot more money, and can generally make even more by switching jobs. Therefor, corporate loyalty, in the current tech industry, is virtually dead.

The one case that it isn't is perhaps companies like google where an employee gets the founders award, which is millions of $$$ of stock options that vest over a relatively large stretch of years. I know a guy who won this award and he is google for life.

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by logfromblammo on Friday May 08, 2015 @04:16PM (#9513899)
Corporate loyalty is a two-way street.

In medieval times, the vassal paid homage and swore fealty in a commendation ceremony, and the lord granted him a fief. The vassal had a duty to aid his lord, and the lord had a duty to protect his vassal. The vassal gave loyalty, and got a secure income in return. It was a permanent relationship. To dissolve it, you had to use an axe, rather than a pink slip.

Corporate loyalty died when management culture forgot that the company owes duties to its employees in addition to its shareholders. Defined benefit pensions became defined contribution retirement plans. Then the employer contribution disappeared. Health insurance plans dwindled from all medical expenses paid to you paying 80% of the premium, $30 co-pays at every turn, and deductibles that are met midway through the twelfth month of the plan fiscal year, then reset. Training programs evaporated. Severance packages got smaller, or vanished. Even the amount of notice I get whenever permanent layoffs are to occur has become days, rather than months.

So there are no more loyal vassals. We are all mercenaries now. I'll start sending out resumes if I so much as notice that the building has a new janitor.

  H. R. tells new hires:
  "How great it is to work here!"
  Give me cash, not lies.
If corporate loyalty is dead, it is because corporations have killed it.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by a3n on Saturday May 09, 2015 @01:08PM (#9516935)
Exactly. There's no "there" there.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by NorthGuy11 on Friday May 08, 2015 @04:21PM (#9513933)
The death of pensions really did it. My wife and I each stumbled upon positions with a pension, and it seems as if the roller-coaster just stopped. We had no "loyalty" and moved around whenever the mood struck us, but now we look at the risk/reward of a more exciting job vs 25 years of stability and a secure retirement... it's not a hard decision to make.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by mikekchar on Friday May 08, 2015 @09:14PM (#9515014)
Just be careful. I used to work at Nortel in Canada which at one point had over 90k employees. When I worked there, I believe they were making $18 billion a year in revenue. Profits appeared to be good.

A few years later it turned out the "good profits" were actually accounting fraud. The company tanked and everyone lost their job. But Nortel had a fairly good pension system, so the people who had worked there for 25 years or more were fine, right?

Well, the company feared that while they were tanking the "best and brightest" executives would leave. Oh my! What to do? They were allowed to siphon the pension money into "executive retention bonuses". Of course this didn't stop the company from ultimately running out of money, but it did get rid of a large part of the pension money.

Investigate your pension scheme and make sure you understand what will happen to your money should the company go out of business. Especially find out where the pension system is ranked as a creditor. No company is too big to fail.

As for me, I only worked there for 5 years and left when it was at its height. After I quit I got a letter from Nortel stating that my minimal benefits were not worth it for them to administer. They were going to keep my pension money and I was welcome to sue if I didn't agree. I guess as it turned out, it didn't make much difference...

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by refurb on Saturday May 09, 2015 @01:49PM (#9517050)
Listen to this guy. I'd much rather get a big 401k match and have the money be mine than trust that my pension will be there based on the whims of the company and market.

Look at the airline industry. Plenty of pensions have been restructured during the string of bankruptcies. Pensions are guaranteed by a federal body, but only up to ~$50K/yr I believe. You'll never get less than that, but you $100K/yr pension might get cut in half and the gov't will say "that's the best we can do".

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by limeyx on Monday May 11, 2015 @12:44PM (#9526041)
Yes, these days a private pension isn't worth the paper it was written on in many cases.

These things should always have been administered by 3rd parties and required to be fully-funded.

No "executive" can look at so much money "just lying around doing nothing" without wanting to get their grubby little hands on it.

Very sad for a lot of people

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by maximilianburke on Saturday May 09, 2015 @02:20AM (#9515706)
It wasn't mentioned if the job was public or private sector. Many government jobs have good pensions.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by chris_wot on Saturday May 09, 2015 @04:37AM (#9515869)
In Australia, this gets taken out of the equation as we have compulsory superannuation.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by istvan__ on Friday May 08, 2015 @03:28PM (#9513661)
Could not agree more, the only downside is that some companies see you as a job hopper, but you can just explain to them that losing 30K-40K/year (aka staying in your job) is not an option
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by rifung on Friday May 08, 2015 @03:52PM (#9513762)
Is 30k-40k really correct? That seems a bit high to me.. If you could make even 30k more a year from switching jobs, and you started at the standard 100k, after 10 years you would be making 400k.

I haven't heard of any developers who make 400k. Then again, I suppose you never said this was for developers, so is there another job where this actually applies?

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by nazgul on Friday May 08, 2015 @04:43PM (#9514037)
There's only been one documented (via a lawsuit) in the 400K range, although that was a few years ago: http://adtmag.com/articles/2011/05/27/what-highest-paid-prog...
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by istvan__ on Friday May 08, 2015 @04:51PM (#9514069)
I was following this pattern: test engineer, administrator, junior developer, developer, senior developer, principal developer, architect, principal architect.

My last 2 job changes were in the 20 - 40K increase range.

250K is not unheard of. I guess this caps out somewhere, but if the US immigration keeps H1Bs under this control than we are going to soon experiencing 300K wages.

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by rifung on Friday May 08, 2015 @05:05PM (#9514152)
Ah okay I think when you said job change I just assumed it meant going to another company, not having a new position or title. I do wonder how quickly you can change positions though. I imagine once you get to senior it's very difficult keep going higher. At least this was what I heard at Amazon.

Do you know if it's easier to get promoted when switching jobs? I have a hard time believing that since I think you would have had to accomplish something significant on several projects to get to principal, but if you switch companies it's very hard for them to truly the impact of what you did.

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by loopbit on Friday May 08, 2015 @06:23PM (#9514459)
I think you are overestimating companies... For most of my career (12 companies, 3 of them my own) it has been easier to get hired at a higher position in a different place than being promoted internally.

When you are applying for a new, higher, role having enough experience at your current level, being sure enough of yourself and demonstrating the ability to create value within the test period will be more than enough for most companies out there.

When trying to get promoted internally you have to deal mostly with office politics. In a way, the quality of your work is only a small part. And, if you are good enough, it can go against you, I know people that have been skipped for promotions for years because their managers knew that the whole department depended on them.

Of course, there are exceptions and I admire those companies, but they are just that: Exceptions.

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by rifung on Friday May 08, 2015 @08:33PM (#9514909)
Interesting. Well, you would know better than I do since you obviously have way more experience! I appreciate the advice and will keep that in mind!
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by istvan__ on Friday May 08, 2015 @09:43PM (#9515092)
Staying with one company is hard. Especially getting promoted in Amazon, that is crazy crazy hard. Your best promotions are when you are changing jobs, I think the best time is to change when you can get a more senior position with obviously more responsibilities but also more recognition.

In SF this can be achieved quick, enough if you demonstrate your knowledge during the interview loops. For certain positions they also ask for previous experience but those positions more of the management side I think. If somebody walks in and writes good code we are willing to hire even into senior position, I don't care too much about the history. I have seen a candidate walking in to the interview from a grocery story where he worked as a cashier. Not only he got hired based on the interviews but he became one of the top performers on the team.

I think it is definitely easier to get "promoted" by changing jobs, especially if you are in a meritocratic environment, like some of the startups in SF.

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by bigiain on Friday May 08, 2015 @10:39PM (#9515235)
A 10 or 15k pay increase per job hop should be easily achievable by much of the Hackernews demographic/stereotype. Sticking around several years for a single digit percent annual payrise could easily cost you 30k/yr over 2 or 3 years compared to switching jobs yearly or faster.

The speed with while a typical ~100k dev role gets promoted or awarded payrises to become a 200k position is _much_ slower that the dev who cherry-picks better opportunities when that arise, and works out close-enough-to-truthful explanations for any resulting 6 or 12 months roles (usually with ex-colleagues who'll give references backing up your post-role-claim that it was a 6 or 12 month contract role, not a permanent position.)

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by SEJeff on Friday May 08, 2015 @05:51PM (#9514352)
You absolutely can make 400k or more by working as a developer in finance. I work in finance and have made more than that some years at my previous job.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by rifung on Saturday May 09, 2015 @11:18AM (#9516598)
Hey I appreciate the input. I'm actually EXTREMELY interested in finance so I'd love to know more about it.

Do developers in finance require any unique skills? Also is there anything special one would have to do to break into the finance industry?

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by istvan__ on Sunday May 10, 2015 @01:26AM (#9518942)
I guess analytical skills, math probably, but these are pretty general. What unique skills are you thinking about?
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by rifung on Sunday May 10, 2015 @02:07AM (#9519036)
I don't have the slightest idea since I don't work there. I was more wondering if there was anything I would need to know before applying specific to the industry or if it's just like any other software engineering job.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by macavity23 on Sunday May 10, 2015 @01:01PM (#9520500)
To succeed in financial dev you need to be comfortable working in a heavyweight, slow large-corporate environment. Think lots of meetings, lots of time estimation & metrics, using Java, C# or C++ (shudder), people caring what you wear. If you can deal with this, the rewards are great. If you can't, it's hell.

There are finance startups where the above doesn't apply, but they don't pay like the banks do.

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by infinite8s on Monday May 11, 2015 @10:44AM (#9525094)
What you describe in the first paragraph aren't roles that pay 400k...
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by SEJeff on Sunday May 10, 2015 @12:54PM (#9520473)
Math... and a lot of it. Look up job descriptions for a Quantitative Developer or Quantitative Analyst.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by nilkn on Friday May 08, 2015 @08:52PM (#9514958)
I got a $40k raise when I switched jobs the first time, and I was paid pretty well before then (not quite $100k, but I'm not in a tech hub either).

Then again, that's the only time I've ever done it, so I can't really say at all whether that trend might continue (almost certainly not).

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by wilsynet on Friday May 08, 2015 @09:08PM (#9514993)
Plenty of developers at Apple, Facebook and Google making 400K per year total comp. They aren't the majority, but there are enough of them to not be rare.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by SEJeff on Friday May 08, 2015 @03:51PM (#9513755)
I've worked at companies at a minimum of 2 years or more and have switched between 5 companies. Would that be considered job hopping?

If I was a hiring manager, seems totally reasonable to me.

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by byoung2 on Friday May 08, 2015 @07:11PM (#9514647)
I have been at 6 companies in 10 years and have not had a problem explaining it. In tech, 1 year per company is reasonable as a minimum.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by istvan__ on Friday May 08, 2015 @09:44PM (#9515093)
Same here, I had to explain to a HR manager once, but I told them if they don't get it they are not looking for me. :)
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by ghaff on Friday May 08, 2015 @10:27PM (#9515206)
Maybe at Silicon Valley startups but it will raise flags in many places. That may be fine based on your interests however.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by s73v3r on Friday May 08, 2015 @06:44PM (#9514544)
Then they'll simply complain that you're only "motivated by money" and that you "don't really want to be part of this team". This is, of course, ignoring the fact that everyone is motivated by money, and almost none of their employees would still be working there if they stopped paying.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by grecy on Friday May 08, 2015 @01:46PM (#9513088)
> Corporate loyalty has been dead for many, many years.

The higher-ups in be corporations have yet to get that memo.

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by vonmoltke on Friday May 08, 2015 @03:53PM (#9513765)
They got the memo; they just want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want you to be loyal to them, but to retain the option to dump you on the street as soon as somebody needs to bump their profit numbers by 0.1%.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by hinkley on Friday May 08, 2015 @07:16PM (#9514673)
Since we've learned that they are almost all sociopaths (not as an epithet, but clinically so), this behavior is perfectly consistent.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by rosser on Friday May 08, 2015 @04:20PM (#9513930)
You missed a zero or two on the right side of your decimal point.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by rylee on Friday May 08, 2015 @10:07PM (#9515161)
Surely you meant "left side".
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by leothekim on Friday May 08, 2015 @01:56PM (#9513142)
Maybe you need to write a 5000-word memo to get the message across.

http://www.webwordcount.com/count.php?u=FoW3dBdV

Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by SlalomStallone on Friday May 08, 2015 @01:54PM (#9513132)
Corporate loyalty is gone, but nepotism never dies.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by psychometry on Friday May 08, 2015 @03:45PM (#9513727)
Loyalty runs both ways. Employees aren't going to want to stay loyal to a company in this mess of a capitalist economy.
Re:210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts af... by coldtea on Friday May 08, 2015 @01:53PM (#9513129)
Not for lots of people. And startup loyalty is even worse.