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Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by jjaredsimpson on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @02:44PM (#9494173)
My views align strongly with Andrew's stated views.

>The reason I say that I don’t worry about AI turning evil is the same reason I don’t worry about overpopulation on Mars.

I think a technological singularity is a rational proposition and even consider it possible within this century. But I have no fear of a Terminator/Matrix/etc outcome. He seems to think the possibility is just too far away to even consider it. But I agree for a different reason. I don't worry because I don't think I (or any human) can accurately assess what a superintelligence would do. And to assume absolute destruction of all humans seems ridiculous.

> In universe two you have one organization, maybe Carnegie Mellon or Google, that invents a self-driving car and bam! You have self-driving cars. It wasn’t available Tuesday but it’s on sale on Wednesday.

>I’m in universe one.

I am strongly in universe one. I have no faith in the basement dwelling loner making significant contributions to AI.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by Jach on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @03:48PM (#9494521)
If you have no idea what the superintelligence will do, then you should set your expectation to be the outcome of any random one of possible superintelligent mind designs. Not all superintelligent mind designs are totally unpredictable -- if I know it will prefer winning in a game of chess to losing, I predict it will win every match against a human, even if I don't know exactly what moves it will make. If I know it will prefer existing to not existing, I predict it will seek the resources to continue existing. If the superintelligence has the hardwired goal of producing paperclips, one of the possible outcomes is tiling the solar system with paperclips. Another is that humans succeed in shutting it down but not until after it's killed people.

Once you're done enumerating as many possibilities as you can for what a superintelligence might have as its goals, simple and complicated or even nonexistent, and what the various outcomes of a superintelligent agent with those goals broadly look like, find out how many of them are positive, negative, or neutral to the future of humanity, especially if these things the superintelligence does requires resources humans also use. I did this once, it convinced me that the likely case is something negative for humanity, even if it's unlikely to be a Terminator/Matrix/Hollywood scenario or really any specific enumeration. What further convinced me that the likely outcome is still negative for humanity, in the event of people making an honest but uninformed attempt at after having created an AGI making sure it won't be net-negative for humanity, is understanding the complexity of human value and how almost right is still very wrong. (http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Complexity_of_value)

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by sampo on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @04:27PM (#9494749)
Kind of like a gorilla trying to predict what humans will do?
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by rndn on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @05:47PM (#9495201)
Exactly. However, a superintelligence might by vastly more superior to us than we are to chimps: http://intelligenceexplosion.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/...

I actually don't quite agree with the spaces on this chart because the scientific method should set us far apart from mice and chimps so that they would almost merge in a single point.

Anyway, there are a handful of reasons to assume that an artificial general intelligence would likely turn out to be far superior to us: (1) Hardware is a much less noisy computation environment compared to the badly insulated neurons in our wetware (though this might be a feature rather than a bug), (2) our neurons operate at about 200 Hz, microchips at 10 million as much, (3) they would have extremely fast access to physical simulations and other computational resources, knowledge bases, other AIs, (4) they would never get tired, no body to maintain, no social obligations, and (5) they could replicate within seconds and easily modify their own sourcecode.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by superdude264 on Wednesday May 06, 2015 @01:11AM (#9496698)
These machines also use vastly more energy than a human brain.
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by rndn on Wednesday May 06, 2015 @11:01AM (#9499119)
Oh right, forgot about that one.
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by gohrt on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @08:36PM (#9495932)
> then you should set your expectation to be the outcome of any random one of possible superintelligent mind designs.

And how did you assign weights to these options?

I assume you didn't make the sophomore mistake of assuming a uniform distribution over all possibilities.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by adrianm on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @03:34PM (#9494443)
How do you feel about the possibility of a HAL-9000 like scenario where oversights in the design of the program lead to it exhibiting unpredictable and dangerous decision making behavior under certain conditions?

The novel of '2001' goes into deeper detail than the film regarding the context in which HAL was programmed. To summarize, his mission was to deliberately withhold certain information about the mission from the crew due to the likelihood of xenophobic sentiment developing amongst them if they knew they were traveling to the site of extra terrestrial intelligence. In a sense, he was fulfilling the parameters of his mission in a way which was contrary to the purpose of it. I always interpreted this story as showing us that the more complex a system, the less accurate our predictions of its failure modes are going to be.

I do not think absolute destruction of humanity is likely either, but I also don't think our first steps with AI on this level will be without the loss of life either (of both human and machine). Keep in mind, the same was and is true of space exploration and is essentially an inherent danger of working with the unknown and on the frontier of our knowledge.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by jjaredsimpson on Thursday May 07, 2015 @11:15AM (#9505630)
I would say any intelligent entity must be unpredictable to actually be considered intelligent.

Any person on the street could kill me for no reason whatsoever. But I don't live my life like that is a possibility.

I also don't think about future superintelligences in that way either. I don't worry that they will be holocaust machines teetering on the brink of genocide.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by Houshalter on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @03:41PM (#9494484)
We don't need to come up with a convincing reason why it would kill humans, we need to come up with a convincing reason why it wouldn't. By default AI will optimize the universe to the greatest extent possible towards it's values. And if it's values aren't the same as ours, then we risk being optimized away. Our atoms are more efficiently used for other purposes.

E.g. if the AI decides to use the mass of the Earth to build a dyson sphere around the sun. Or tries to build the biggest computer possible and turns the Earth into a giant computer. Or it values reproduction and tries to replicate as much as possible and outcompetes us. Or it values self preservation and kills us because we could make other AIs which could threaten it.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by jimfleming on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @04:19PM (#9494701)
> By default AI will optimize the universe to the greatest extent possible towards it's values.

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand this line of thinking. Intelligence is complex, soft, and can even conflict with itself. Why do you envision artificial intelligence as if it were a pure optimization algorithm with high-level problem solving abilities? It seems to me that a fuzzy metaheuristic with lots of competing goals would be a better comparison and this does not lend itself to the "paperclip factory" quite as readily.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @04:59PM (#9494938)
"Siri - make me a Dyson sphere."

The irony about these conversations is that humans are already far more of a threat to humanity now than an AI might be, possibly, at some undetermined time in the future.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @05:05PM (#9494965)
Not true! AI's are thinking and acting at the speed of light. We put them in charge of our infrastructure all the time (internet, phone systems, stock trading, medical records and on and on). Already they have tremendous potential to do us harm, at a rate far outstripping any given humans. They only lack the will, so far.
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by juliangregorian on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @05:26PM (#9495054)
Rule-based systems are hardly strong AI. I don't even know what you mean by "thinking and acting at the speed of light". If you have more information I'd love to hear it.
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @05:57PM (#9495254)
Programmed trading on the stock market doesn't take human response times. In fact, its designed to react and communicate trades as near the speed of light as possible.

AIs (that don't exist yet) are going to be in charge of controlling electronic systems (examples given). They will behave with a time-constant that is unrelated to human reaction times. They will be able to do harm, and compound that harm, at rates mere humans will be powerless to react/

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by juliangregorian on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @07:20PM (#9495610)
Got it. Hyperbole and unfounded fearmongering. Thanks for clarifying.
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @07:53PM (#9495771)
Only if you're afraid? I'm not. The issue was just this: AIs will operate quickly. Faster than we can react. That's the nature of electronic life vs biological. So it would be good to be ready for that.
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by juliangregorian on Thursday May 07, 2015 @02:15AM (#9503545)
And I suppose you have suggestions for how we might "be ready"?
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by JoeAltmaier on Thursday May 07, 2015 @03:06AM (#9503661)
What's with all the hate? Wishing that AIs were tame, slow, manageable tools is all fine and good; but I just pointed out that there's a very high speed-limit to how fast they'll be able to think. Why waste your venom on me?
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by juliangregorian on Sunday May 10, 2015 @11:28PM (#9522539)
This isn't a sci-fi authors message board. If all you want to do is listen to the sound of your own voice you should go elsewhere.
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by tgflynn on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @08:25PM (#9495901)
I think the best arguments for why strong AI might be dangerous are:

1) The main approach to creating weak AI that actually works is to define some objective function and train some sufficiently complex mathematical model to maximize that objective. Hence it seems likely that if strong AI is created it will follow this paradigm and therefore such a strong AI will care about nothing other than how to maximize its objective. Such a strong AI would be nothing like a human mind so anthropomorphised thinking is of little use in reasoning about it.

2) Given a sufficiently powerful optimization algorithm (say, for example, if P == NP and an efficient algorithm for an NP hard problem were discovered) one can in fact imagine the above paradigm producing an incredibly powerful intelligence, one that could discover many sub-goals for its fundamental optimization objective which the creator of the fundamental objective could not foresee. Further it could be exceedingly effective at achieving its sub-goals, much like modern chess programs are exceedingly effective at winning at chess, but in a far more general domain.

There are however reasons to doubt such a danger.

1) If P != NP then although it should in theory be possible to achieve roughly human equivalent AI, the sort of truly superhuman AI that some fear may not in fact be possible. In other words it may be that if P != NP there is some limit to how powerful an intelligence can become due to the combinatorial explosion that occurs when one tries to expand the range of possibilities that are considered.

2) Even if no such limits exist there are probably ways to maintain control over even a superintelligent AI. A powerful optimizer would be exceedingly good at finding solutions within its own model of the world but that is only part of what is needed to construct a super AI that actually interacts with the world. You would also need a process for creating and updating the world model based on empirical data. This type of architecture would probably give you several powerful levers for controlling the AI and you could always let the optimizer run on the world model to check on its behavior before allowing it to act on the real world.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by Houshalter on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @09:52PM (#9496155)
Even if you start off with messy complicated AI, it could modify itself to become a more efficient optimizer. And it would do that because it would be beneficial for whatever set of values it has, no matter how complicated.

Regardless I don't know why you think a messy AI is safe. Having a really complicated utility function doesn't mean it is going to result in anything desirable for humans.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by jimfleming on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @03:20PM (#9494364)
I have to agree on a few points as well:

We're much closer than we were a year ago but not as close as many think we are w.r.t self-driving cars, killer robots or even reliable speech recognition.

Safe-guards are probably a good idea before unleashing an AGI onto the Internet but those working on it are not going to be surprised one morning that their AI project suddenly became sentient or dangerous. It will be a deliberate, massive project with lots of funding and lots of smart people working on it.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by heurist on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @04:55PM (#9494916)
> I have no faith in the basement dwelling loner making significant contributions to AI.

Why not? There's a strong history of individuals outside of academia making large contributions to science.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by astrocyte on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @05:58PM (#9495258)
He probably doesn't consider it due to group think... Probably the biggest thing limiting lots of individuals from ushering in a new paradigm. Truthfully stated and functionally so, the biggest contributions/changes come from someone thinking outside of the accepted (limited) view: the basement dweller not following the herd.. Many could be horrible wrong but all it takes is one to be right. Meanwhile, in the box, no one sees beyond it or its limits.
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by jjaredsimpson on Thursday May 07, 2015 @11:19AM (#9505668)
This is a motivational poster, but it doesn't reflect reality. There are lots of people who go with the current and also against the current. The majority of people who go against the current of mainstream knowledge are quacks or misguided or simply not competent to make the discovery they want to make.

The few who make novel contributions are not representative.

People working in groups building on the success and knowledge of others make the vast majority of meaningful contributions in all fields.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by eli_gottlieb on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @07:05PM (#9495553)
Well, if the basement dweller can build software that performs unprecedentedly well on a known task with a known benchmark data-set, and explain how he did it, and he's read at least some previous academic literature... Sure.

But most basement dwellers don't go to that much effort.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by heurist on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @07:42PM (#9495714)
Most, not all... The real problem is vetting the "how" and dissemination of information. A non-academic might have no idea how to present their findings through journals or conferences, even if their ideas are well-formed and valid. I imagine there would also be strong push-back from academics averse to outside contributors (at least for big changes). What if known benchmarks are insufficient? How will the outsider convince the professionals? There's also a problem of access to literature... journals can be expensive if you aren't getting them for free at a university. There are a lot of free journals online nowadays but they don't always cover everything you might need. It's hard to tell a crank from a genius, but that doesn't mean there are no geniuses hidden away out there.
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by eli_gottlieb on Wednesday May 06, 2015 @10:14AM (#9498738)
>I imagine there would also be strong push-back from academics averse to outside contributors (at least for big changes).

No, not really. "We" academics get cliquey because of the intellectual prerequisites to our work, not because we're trying to form a closed conspiracy for domination of the academic world. If someone can demonstrate findings but has unusual institutional affiliations, we'll give them exactly our normal treatment (ie: skepticism in proportion to how thoroughly they're proving our hypotheses wrong, mixed with enthusiasm for having something interesting to talk about).

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by 0xdeadbeefbabe on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @04:10PM (#9494644)
What about a basement dwelling loner singularity? Gauss was a loner, and I'd have faith in him.
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by jjaredsimpson on Thursday May 07, 2015 @11:09AM (#9505584)
In what sense could gauss be considered a loner. He corresponded and collaborated extensively.
Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by 0xdeadbeefbabe on Thursday May 07, 2015 @11:55AM (#9505962)
At some point in his life he looked like a loner at least according to http://www.users.miamioh.edu/shermalw/honors_2001_fall/honor...

In another sense being a genius can make you feel alone even when you are collaborating.

Re:Andrew Ng: Why 'Deep Learning' Is a Mandate for Humans, N... by cgag on Tuesday May 05, 2015 @03:17PM (#9494343)
It seems likely that one will eventually be built, and hard to assess what it'll do. How does that not seem like a problem worth working on. To assume it'd be safe seems at least as ridiculous as assuming it'd be a huge danger.