... including a YC company called InstallMonetizer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5092711

Downvoters are invited to explain what's wrong with this comment, I see installmonetizer as one of the low points in the history of YC and watsi as the high point, possibly the high point in VC investing in the last decade or more.

Just because YC has watsi doesn't mean they shouldn't have to explain why they're affiliated with InstallMonetizer, and justify their decision.

If I were in YC/PGs shoes I would have dropped installmonetizer the second I found out what they did but then again, I don't run the most successful start-up accelerator on the planet for a good reason.

In fact, I wouldn't have invested in them in the first place. But on the whole if you select for hackers driven to make money at any cost you can expect to get a rotten apple every now and then.

Whether or not YC should have dropped installmonetizer once it became clear what they were up to (if that wasn't clear from the application alone) is something everybody has to decide for themselves, for me it is clear that they should have.

Also, to their credit I haven't seen them invest in anything as shady as installmonetizer after that point so maybe some lessons were learned.

Like Sourceforge? http://blog.gluster.org/2013/08/how-far-the-once-mighty-sour...

Then times got tough and sourceforge sold to new owners and that's when the trouble started.

Meanwhile, in the real world, Sourceforge injects adware in to downloads for open source projects. Trust is more subtle than open source/closed source.

I reworded it for generality, but specifically, "You can't trust anybody except open source repositories" does not imply "You can trust all open source repositories" in exactly the same way as, in more general terms, "You can't trust anybody outside of group X" does not imply "You can trust everybody inside of group X".

And is anyone really reading all of the code they run before they run it? With all of its third-party dependencies?

I don't think open source repositories are safer because they're open source, but precisely because there is no commercial benefit to shoveling BS into them. In fact, with the bigger commercial open source software, you often do see crap you don't want being included as a means to funnel users into commercial channels.

The only practical solution I can see is proper sandboxing of applications so you don't need to trust them in the first place.

The houses where I lived in Canada weren't locked, they didn't even have locks. In Amsterdam it would take about 6 seconds from the time you left to have your house burgled if you did that.

As far as it reduces your ability to tweak or repurpose your software: I don't think that it has to be that way but it will definitely be harder than in an environment of trust.

Maybe there is an easy way to get both ease of fiddling and very high security but I haven't seen anything like that yet. There are some interesting research projects revolving around 'capability based operating systems' and such, maybe that's where they key lies, or in some other development currently underway.

> It just limits apps interactions with each other and the OS environment.

That makes a whole slew of modifications and tricks harder and/or impossible without having access to the sourcecode of the software, which is (on windows at least) not rare at all.

Any kind of interaction not explicitly allowed is then forbidden and the sandboxing will be a lot harder to overcome than two apps on the same machine talking to each other using a third.

Maybe some kind of unified app-to-app messaging protocol can take care of this, similar to how linux systems uses 'dbus' and the likes.

What I want is to retain the ability to repurpose the software on my terms. To move data in and out of the software whether software's authors like it or not. It's becoming harder each day, as more and more tools move to the cloud and turn into apps. I'm happy we still have userscripts in the browser but how long will it take before they get banned too?

This problem has many names. "War on General-Purpose Computation" is one of them, but I suppose the "professionalization of programming" is another. How long will it take before you'll need an engineering license to be allowed to use a compiler, or work with a Turing-complete language?

It used to be that you could get a lot of use out of a computer all by itself, nowadays that's changed and the trend to 'always on, always online' translates into having your machine potentially under attack 24/7.

Being vigilant against enabling the war on general purpose computation is very good, it is the biggest threat in the longer term and one of the reasons why I think that all these large silos are a very bad development.

I don't think we have much to fear from the 'professionalization of programming', not if the kind of code I see on a daily basis is anything to go by ;)

There have been numerous attempts at slapping a gateway on the ability to write software for the hardware that you already own, the only environment where this has taken hold is on mobile platforms, I sincerely hope that that is a development that we will sooner or later be able to revert.

But in order to revert it you'd have to come up with a solution for the pandemonium that would ensue if everybody and their brother would use the likes of 'download.com' or some equivalent to install their software from. Maybe something along the lines of apt-get for phones would be a starting point.

I don't know. Part of the answer likely lies in determining who the "owner" actually is. I want to be the owner of my computer, but business interests go against it. For instance, MAFIAA doesn't want me to be the owner, because they want secure means to enforce DRM on me. Other businesses would also like to be the owners, because they can monetize me better this way.

> I don't think we have much to fear from the 'professionalization of programming', not if the kind of code I see on a daily basis is anything to go by ;)

Let's hope so, but I think it naturally follows from Trusted Computing - the technology will enable proffessionalization. Because right now, there isn't much you can do to prevent people from getting their hands on a compiler and using it.

> There have been numerous attempts at slapping a gateway on the ability to write software for the hardware that you already own, the only environment where this has taken hold is on mobile platforms, I sincerely hope that that is a development that we will sooner or later be able to revert.

I hope so, but I fear we won't - that at some point a company will finally figure out how to lease PCs to general population instead of selling them. You'll get a nice, cheap laptop, but it will be locked down, equipped with trusted computing hardware (the company will be the trusted actor, of course) and require to connect to the Internet every now and then to verify everything is ok. Basically, what happened to mobile, only worse. And people will buy into it if the price difference will be significant enough. Actually, I'm not sure what's stopping companies now from doing this.

> But in order to revert it you'd have to come up with a solution for the pandemonium that would ensue if everybody and their brother would use the likes of 'download.com' or some equivalent to install their software from. Maybe something along the lines of apt-get for phones would be a starting point.

Yup. Crap like this is a huge problem, but I'm not sure if it requires locking things down. You can go the Apple way and aggressively verify every piece of software you allow in your repository. This makes you the trusted authority, which carries risks like abuse of trust, but solves the problem without heavy sandboxing.

So far I see the issue of distributed vs. centralized as a tradeoff between secure but inefficient, and efficient but with serious failure modes. I wish there was a way to capture benefits of both while avoiding the risks.

They'll give them away just to get you to be part of the ecosystem!

Apple does provide some verification services but the major reason the app store in its current form exists is as a choke point to extract revenues and as a way to remove any credible competition to Apple supplied applications.

OSX still has very little adware attached to downloads, in my experience - plus there's the Mac App Store. It's pretty much just Windows users who endure that.

Installing "common" software is a doddle too, wth Ninite. You get Firefox, vlc, Dropbox, spotify, Skype (now in windows updates though) notepad++, up to date Java and .net run times, pdf reader etc etc. I set up the installer once about 3 years ago and the same one still works, with a one click update.

As someone who has used Debian almost exclusively for a few years now, I've got to admit that Windows 8 really does handle drivers nicely. Linux systems are generally pretty good about drivers these days, at least if you allow proprietary drivers, but nothing beats total out-of-the-box automation.

Example on Gentoo(ignore the over the top headline):

http://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-infection-proves-windows-...

Not to mention that the repos themselves have been having security issues over the years.

That is patently false.

Established profitable companies in a market with multiple competitors usually do not fuck with their customers, if they charge up-front for their product/service.

On the other hand, companies that give away stuff for "free" have to find unique ways to pay the bills (be it hosting fees, or hardware costs, or developer time, etc). In recent years the most common way is to create some way to essentially trick people into clicking ads.

Open Source repositories have not found any long term sustainable method to get compensated for their hosting fees or hardware costs. At the moment, they are run on donations - mostly from commercial vendors, universities and the like. At some point in the future, lets say if 500 million desktop users all start using those repositories, there will come a time when that cost is going to stick out on a balance sheet. I hope that they figure out a way to get paid for their efforts by then.

Lenovo (and lots of other hardware manufacturers) are proof positive that this is absolutely not the case. There isn't a windows machine bought over the years by my extended family that did not have a whole pile of junk on it right from day one including ad injectors such as described in the article.

Whether or not open source is 'viable' for large numbers of users is no longer a question that needs settling. For bandwidth we have torrents if need be.

Anyway, I view most comment sections as informal/idle chit-chat, and not courtroom/dissertation situations where everything needs to be cited and/or "proved". When I'm commenting I'm usually smiling to myself or amused, not angry or trying to "win" anything.

I've actually never seen an an freedom respecting project that included adware, and I can confidently say that the reason for that is that if a team were to do that, somebody would fork the repo and remove the offensive junk. As long as it gets caught, it's a self healing ecosystem. The same cannot be said for non-free software, as the pool of people who could find junk is so much smaller, but also because if junk were to be found by an employee, they'd have very little power to actually do anything about it.

Open source is volunteers, and when its not, they run on donations. When the donations stop, they stop. Some have found clever ways to make money, such as pay4premium or pay4support, but I've never seen ad injectors. Those come from third party distributors who aren't affiliated with the projects and can be avoided.