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Re:I Gave My Child Autism by nether on Saturday March 21, 2015 @09:31PM (#9245107)
What does "autism" even mean today? I've heard it used to describe everything from awkward introverts with technical interests, to kids who are nearly mute with speech disabilities. Do anti-vaxers think they're saving their kids from becoming software engineers?
Re:I Gave My Child Autism by bshimmin on Saturday March 21, 2015 @09:51PM (#9245167)
I share your frustration. Autism, Asperger's Syndrome, "on the spectrum" - these words and phrases all seem to mean precisely whatever the person saying them wishes them to mean, from a pseudo-sympathetic acknowledgement of someone's problems to a cutting dismissal of behaviour they find unpalatable or challenging; and all delivered, of course, without any clinical frame of reference.

I miss the days when people could just be shy or awkward or irritable or even narcissistic without it eliciting an armchair diagnosis.

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by laumars on Saturday March 21, 2015 @11:05PM (#9245392)
I think you're missing the point of what "the spectrum" is. Let's take another example, dyslexia. Some people suffer considerably worse than others; and some people's dyslexia is so mild that it might never be formally diagnosed. The same is true for autism. It's not a simple black-and-white case like someone having a broken leg. There's a gradual curve of disability that ranges from the "has to work a little harder to get along in every day life" to the extreme cases were 24/7 care is required.

As to why it might appear that different people refer to different things when using these terms: that might just be because their reference points are from different points along the scale. Or in some cases, they might just be ignorant but vocal bloggers; but sadly this happens in all aspects of science (eg the anti-vaccination campaigners spouting shit doesn't mean that doctors don't know what they're talking about when they promote the use of vaccinations).

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by maratd on Saturday March 21, 2015 @11:47PM (#9245490)
You're missing his point. At what point does a personality trait become a disorder?
Re:I Gave My Child Autism by wvenable on Sunday March 22, 2015 @12:09AM (#9245544)
When that trait interferes with your daily life. It's pretty common for people to be afraid of heights but if that fear interferes with getting a job, having relationships, enjoying everyday activities, then that's a disorder.

The problem is lay people think of "autism" the way that creationists say evolution is a "theory". An awkward introvert with technical interests isn't going to be professionally diagnosed as autistic unless they have some pretty serious and defined symptoms. But that doesn't stop misinformed lay-person usage in everyday conversation.

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by wpietri on Sunday March 22, 2015 @02:58AM (#9245912)
My issue with that attempt to define a disorder is that it can medicalize mismatches with artificial environments. (That is, almost all environments humans live in.) It in effect defines all deviations from "normal" as defects.

Imagine you're living in a culture of subsistence agriculture. And imagine further that you are thin, quiet, nearsighted, physically delicate, and are inclined to spend all your time reading. You are basically unsuited for the available jobs, nobody wants you in a relationship, and what everyday activities are available are ones you don't enjoy. So the village headman decides that you have a disorder and need treatment, by which he means regular beatings. Of course, you might make a fine librarian, but that's not an option.

The same thing was done with gay people for ages. Or women; note how female hysteria was a medical diagnosis that eventually vanished: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_hysteria

As another example, quite a lot of American children end up medicated because they are inconvenient for overworked teachers in classrooms that follow industrial models of education. A friend of mine was once a substitute teacher in a class where every single student had been diagnosed with ADHD and was on medication. The daily life that their trait was interfering with is entirely artificial. At some point I think one has to wonder whether the problem is the trait or the constructed environment that the trait isn't a good match for.

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by jostylr on Sunday March 22, 2015 @09:26AM (#9246662)
I work in a Sudbury school where we have two kids diagnosed with autism. When they first arrived, they had some problems. But in the free environment of our school, they have become as amazing as all the other children in the school. I don't even think of them as being autistic.

We all have deficiencies. What we all need are environments that let us figure out how to cope with them.

Of course, it is all matters of degree and people need to be able to take responsibility for their actions and needs. Not all can and that requires something different.

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by gress on Monday March 23, 2015 @11:48AM (#9251500)
This is by far the most relevant comment here. Any attempt to understand human reactions without also examining the environment, is absurd.
Re:I Gave My Child Autism by i14ng on Sunday March 22, 2015 @12:26AM (#9245580)
It should be noted that in kids nobody can say whether it will _always_ interfere with their daily life in a material way. Autism diagnosis in a preschooler usually (90%-ish?) means it will, which is amazingly accurate if you think about it. But it's definitely not 100%. So in little kids, the diagnostician is saying they _think_ it will interfere with daily life (and that it is interfering today, but saying that about a 3-year-old doesn't necessarily mean always and forever).

See also http://intellectualizing.net/2013/09/21/the-trouble-with-ove...

Another issue is that it's sometimes easier to have a personal difference interfere with school than it is to have it interfere with real life. That argument is at http://intellectualizing.net/2015/03/12/schools-are-disorder... Real life is more flexible than most schools.

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by ubernostrum on Sunday March 22, 2015 @12:27AM (#9245586)
Personally, colorblindness is my go-to example here, because it is similarly spectrum-ish (and not in the punny sense).

We use the term "colorblindness" in a monolithic way, yet it refers to any of at least eight different things, each of which is caused by a different genetic mutation and produces a different physiologic result. Even the term "red-green colorblindness" is misleading, because it could refer to at least four different things.

Many people with "colorblindness" can actually live their whole lives without ever realizing it; the most common form (deuteranomaly, which is what most people mean by "red-green colorblindness", despite it actually affecting the yellow-orange-brown area of the visible spectrum) rarely if ever interferes with common day-to-day life for many people who have it (like me). On the other hand, the rarer forms can significantly impair vision to the point that common tasks become difficult or even impossible. Yet most of the time we use the same term, "colorblindness", to refer to all of them.

In much the same way, "autism" refers to a wide range of situations, some of which have significant effects on day-to-day life and some of which have much lesser effects.

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by CodeWriter23 on Sunday March 22, 2015 @08:14PM (#9248804)
> You're missing his point. At what point does a personality trait become a disorder?

In the case of my nephew, his condition (his pediatrician diagnosing him to have Autism) became a disorder when it was proven that his symptoms were the result of numerous factors, all resolved under a licensed doctor's care using standard blood and stool tests to detect, and standard biomedical interventions to correct. He suffered from numerous food allergies, a raging yeast infection, and heavy metal poisoning.

His issues arose mostly as the result of his body's deficiency in creating glutathione, an essential antioxidant produced by our bodies to aid in the excretion of toxins. This deficiency was confirmed by genetic sequencing that revealed an MTHFR mutation, passed on to him by both parents, therefore a double mutation, limiting his glutathione production to 7-10% of normal.

His symptoms started at about 2-1/2. At the age of 7 or so, his doctors diagnosed him as "indistinguishable from his peers", after the interventions and much developmental therapy to help him catch up. He eats a rotating diet, where the same food does not repeat for several days at a time, and takes numerous supplements to address deficiencies revealed by the aforementioned blood and stool samples.

The only lingering sign of autism we can notice is he still loves some good bear hugs. I'm happy to oblige him.

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by DanBC on Saturday March 21, 2015 @11:56PM (#9245511)
When it interferes (negatively) with your day to day life.
Re:I Gave My Child Autism by makeitsuckless on Sunday March 22, 2015 @05:09AM (#9246110)
Those days never existed. I'm from a generation where many that now would be considered "on the spectrum" were diagnosed with personality disorders. (Narcissistic being one of them btw, a diagnosis, not just a common adjective, and the most fashionable being "borderline".)

With exactly the same broad spectrum of opinions, with or without clinical frame of reference. When it comes to psychiatry, science appears to be as sensitive to fashion as society in general.

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by Retra on Saturday March 21, 2015 @11:46PM (#9245487)
Were there ever days like that?
Re:I Gave My Child Autism by Retric on Saturday March 21, 2015 @10:00PM (#9245190)
"Autism" is a 'spectrum disorder' so at the low end you have Asperger's which does not involve linguistic or cognitive development. Unfortunately, at the other end you get significant impairments in social communication and interaction across multiple contexts as well as significant cognitive impairments.

Much confusion stems from the sliding scale definition as it can be difficult to separate (no vs mild), (mild vs moderate) , or (moderate vs significant) impairment.

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by frozenport on Saturday March 21, 2015 @10:34PM (#9245282)
>>What does "autism" even mean today?

Twelve years ago I volunteered to run summer camp activities with autistic kids. These kids had speech problems, and were constantly shaking, arms curled, their thoughts were aloof and obsessive. Yes there was a spectrum, but there was no doubt who was autistic.

Newly found, or self diagnosed persons have clarity of mind that was completely absent from traditionally autistic persons.

Frankly, if you can think straight you shouldn't be let off the hook. To speculate, perhaps our society is getting bad at instilling social behavior, as kids are increasingly isolated.

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by Qantourisc on Sunday March 22, 2015 @04:29AM (#9246038)
>> Frankly, if you can think straight you shouldn't be let off the hook.

"Off the hook" as in not being labelled autistic, or ?

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by wvenable on Saturday March 21, 2015 @10:26PM (#9245252)
Based on my experience with the system, most psychologists and doctors have a pretty firm idea of what is an is not autism even if it's a bit fuzzier for the rest of us.
Re:I Gave My Child Autism by stared on Saturday March 21, 2015 @10:48PM (#9245326)
They do have a firm idea, but not for a good reason. Doctors want to diagnose with yes or no (and it has its legal consequences). Yet, all current evidence shows that most likely there is no sharp transition between having autism and not. For some readings, look at papers at https://www.mendeley.com/groups/519371/asperger-syndrome-and....
Re:I Gave My Child Autism by DanBC on Saturday March 21, 2015 @09:34PM (#9245122)
Re:I Gave My Child Autism by cubano on Saturday March 21, 2015 @09:55PM (#9245177)
Diagnostic Criteria for 299.00 Autism Spectrum Disorder

Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):

!.Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.

2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.

3. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understand relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers

I am 50yo, am a struggling recovering addict, and I totally suffer deeply from all 3 of these criteria and have for most of my life...

No one ever mentioned the word autism to me, and I've been to two high quality, long-term impatient treatment centers in my life.

I suffer from these to this day, and can't help but wonder how much of my addiction issues are directly related to them.

It feels to me, looking at the list through tear-clouded eyes, that almost all of them are.

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by jat850 on Saturday March 21, 2015 @10:18PM (#9245236)
Your last sentence was heart-breaking. Whether or not the list applies to you - whatever you've gone through - and whether you are somewhere along that autistic spectrum - none of them define you on their own. You are not the sum of checkboxes on a list. You're a person who has survived a series of challenges. Keep surviving and keep being a person, not a count of checkboxes.
Re:I Gave My Child Autism by falcolas on Saturday March 21, 2015 @10:33PM (#9245275)
It's autism by that definition when those symptoms interfere with your daily life. Otherwise it's called being human.

That said, not all psychiatrists are created equal, and some of them suffer from the same biases as the rest of us. Try talking to an autism specialist.

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by mgkimsal on Saturday March 21, 2015 @11:35PM (#9245462)
> interfere with your daily life

If it's all you've ever known, it just is your daily life. How would you know any different?

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by falcolas on Sunday March 22, 2015 @01:53AM (#9245766)
That's where you get an impartial third party involved.

They can tell if you are indeed outside the standard deviation for the population, and help you identify if and how to get back up to par.

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by gizmo686 on Saturday March 21, 2015 @11:43PM (#9245478)
It is autism regardless of it interferes with your daily life. The decision if you want to treat it or not (should) depend on if it interferes with your daily life.
Re:I Gave My Child Autism by falcolas on Sunday March 22, 2015 @01:58AM (#9245776)
Not necessarily. If you ask 100 people if they have ever encountered these issues, all 100 will say yes. It's those whose lives are negatively impacted by these issues outside the norm who get the diagnosis and need outside help.
Re:I Gave My Child Autism by err4nt on Sunday March 22, 2015 @11:17AM (#9247009)
Thanks for sharing! Well this message you wrote shows you are capable of at least #1 and #2, and hopefully #3 as well :)

I have heard that you will never find an addict who isn't trying to numb pain in their life. If you can deal with the pain you feel separately I hope that the addiction will become a much easier battle to win!

Numerous times when I have gotten to know people who interact with autistic kids, or have been a caregiver for an autistic child, they have spoken to me as though I have autistic tendencies (and knew about them) and so lately, as an adult, I have been wondering whether Im on the spectrum.

I know that life is a struggle, and some of the things I struggle with could be related to tendencies I share with others. I dont know why, but the thought that I might be even midly autistic fills me with hope, thinking that if I can learn to function despite my difficulties and I'm not alone, then maybe I can help others do the same.

I can't say whether you're autistic or not, but I can tell you that you have company (you are not alone) and you are appreciated!

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by doomrobo on Saturday March 21, 2015 @10:12PM (#9245221)
To just expand on some of the comments below, here is the relevant section from the DSM-V: http://docdroid.net/v7s2
Re:I Gave My Child Autism by dbbolton on Saturday March 21, 2015 @10:33PM (#9245277)
To medical professionals, it does have a narrower definition, although it may seem vague. Here is the current ICD-10 description for childhood autism (F84.0):

A type of pervasive developmental disorder that is defined by: (a) the presence of abnormal or impaired development that is manifest before the age of three years, and (b) the characteristic type of abnormal functioning in all the three areas of psychopathology: reciprocal social interaction, communication, and restricted, stereotyped, repetitive behaviour. In addition to these specific diagnostic features, a range of other nonspecific problems are common, such as phobias, sleeping and eating disturbances, temper tantrums, and (self-directed) aggression.

http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2015/en#/F8...

More clinical info:

* A disorder beginning in childhood. It is marked by the presence of markedly abnormal or impaired development in social interaction and communication and a markedly restricted repertoire of activity and interest. Manifestations of the disorder vary greatly depending on the developmental level and chronological age of the individual. (dsm-iv)

* A disorder characterized by marked impairments in social interaction and communication accompanied by a pattern of repetitive, stereotyped behaviors and activities. Developmental delays in social interaction and language surface prior to age 3 years.

* Autism is a disorder that is usually diagnosed in early childhood. The main signs and symptoms of autism involve communication, social interactions and repetitive behaviors. Children with autism might have problems talking with you, or they might not look you in the eye when you talk to them. They may spend a lot of time putting things in order before they can pay attention, or they may say the same sentence again and again to calm themselves down. They often seem to be in their "own world."because people with autism can have very different features or symptoms, health care providers think of autism as a "spectrum" disorder. asperger syndrome is a milder version of the disorder.the cause of autism is not known. Autism lasts throughout a person's lifetime. There is no cure, but treatment can help. Treatments include behavior and communication therapies and medicines to control symptoms. Starting treatment as early as possible is important. nih: national institute of child health and human development

* Disorder beginning in childhood marked by the presence of markedly abnormal or impaired development in social interaction and communication and a markedly restricted repertoire of activity and interest; manifestations of the disorder vary greatly depending on the developmental level and chronological age of the individual.

* Type of autism characterized by very early detection (< 30 months), social coldness, grossly impaired communication, and bizarre motor responses

.http://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/F01-F99/F80-F89/F84-/...

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by i14ng on Saturday March 21, 2015 @11:43PM (#9245479)
If you want to understand what the current research says it means, a great book is Rethinking Autism by Lynn Waterhouse; see my review of it at http://intellectualizing.net/2013/12/17/book-rethinking-auti... and the book on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Autism-Complexity-Lynn-Wate...

The "disease" analogy is grossly misleading because it makes you think it's a single "thing" with a single cause; the right analogy is to a dimensional trait (such as intelligence), or traits perhaps (such as both social/communication skills on the one hand, and repetitive behaviors on the other). Then think about many different conditions resulting in this trait, much as many different conditions result in intellectual disability (or intellectual superiority). As with intellectual disability, autism diagnosis is more of a semi-arbitrary cutoff on the scale, rather than a binary yes-or-no.

I say "semi-" arbitrary because diagnosis is an attempt to locate "where on this scale people start to really need extra help," but "arbitrary" because there isn't a strong scientific reason to put it at say 99.1 percentile vs 89.9 percentile.

As with variation in intelligence, autism appears to be mostly genetic, with some impact from environment. The underlying condition resulting in autistic traits varies a lot. Sometimes, the condition may have other consequences, such as seizures or intellectual disability. Other times, the condition is best thought of as simply an extreme personality type, or something like that.

Think about how various conditions resulting in ID can have accompanying issues (such as heart problems with Down syndrome). When someone says seizures or gut problems or whatever are "autism," that's like saying heart problems are intellectual disability. It doesn't make any sense. Autism is just the social/communication part, not everything that's up with someone.

If you work in tech, you know a lot of autistic people, you just maybe don't know it, and they often do not know it themselves. Some of them are quite successful and not "obvious"; others are extremely clear to anyone who knows what to look for. But most of them probably do have some level of real disability, or if nothing else did have some level of it as children.

For many of us the disability is primarily in personal life (friends, etc.), or historical childhood difficulty, and we are highly competent at work.

I did not imagine that the diagnostic label applied to me until my son was diagnosed; but now I realize that it does apply or very nearly apply to me and several people I know (but I have no idea how to bring it up). Especially when they are having kids, I wish I'd known earlier that autism can be kind of the way my family is and many people I know are, and that it isn't always this big scary thing.

The tech industry should be much better informed about autism given its prevalence in our coworkers and ourselves. Even the many who aren't diagnosable may be closer to autistic than to average.

When those of us who are around 40 were kids, the diagnostic rate for autism was about 1/1000 and it's now a bit above 1/100, higher for boys. So the delta between those is the number of undiagnosed adults walking around today, who would have been diagnosed by modern criteria. It's a lot of people.

Some number of those got a different dx in the past (such as intellectual disability), but the kinds who are now in tech probably got no diagnosis at all most of the time, other than "weird kid."

Re:I Gave My Child Autism by i14ng on Sunday March 22, 2015 @08:46AM (#9246543)
... when I wrote 89.9 I meant 98.9 (perhaps obvious)
Re:I Gave My Child Autism by Dewie on Sunday March 22, 2015 @09:39AM (#9246698)
People have co-opted actual, real diagnosis and started to use them to describe things that are vaguely related/associated with that thing. People who are adamant about being tidy and organized "have OCD". People who are bummed out that their gf just broke up with them "have depression". People that are socially awkward "are autistic".