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Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by cordite on Sunday February 15, 2015 @02:53PM (#9053812)
Seems like whoever writes financial code in the future should treat it more like NASA code than startup technical-debt code.
Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by ryan-allen on Sunday February 15, 2015 @02:58PM (#9053825)
This is true if you intend on running an exchange properly and not being a highway robber posing as a travelling dentist.
Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by panhandlr on Sunday February 15, 2015 @03:03PM (#9053847)
Exactly... From my perspective, their plan worked perfectly.

1. Open an exchange. 2. Collect real money in exchange for fake money. 3. "Get hacked" losing all the fake money and keeping all the real money.

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by im2w1l on Sunday February 15, 2015 @03:13PM (#9053889)
Yeah, "We noticed the hot wallets dwindling but assuming it was members moving their funds off site during the DDOS, we loaded all the cold balances onto the site"

sounds extremely suspicious.

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by Mtinie on Sunday February 15, 2015 @03:53PM (#9054070)
Possiblely, but in light of the protracted duration of the DDoS, it makes sense that people would be moving their holdings off-exchange when they could connect. If the withdrawal addresses were all different -- and from what Excoin posted on their site it looks like the party responsible used multiple BTC and NBT addresses to move the funds -- multiples of small to moderate amounts of coins being requested doesn't sound out of the question.

In retrospect, it was a horrible decision not to research these transactions in depth as they happened, but the Excoin team was fighting a "bigger" fire at the time with the DDoS.

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by brighton36 on Monday February 16, 2015 @08:58AM (#9056906)
Which one is the fake money, USD or btc?
Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by rodgerd on Sunday February 15, 2015 @04:24PM (#9054184)
Sufficiently advanced criminality is indistinguishable from gross stupidity, apparently.
Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by trupedo on Sunday February 15, 2015 @03:11PM (#9053884)
But are the customers willing to pay a significant premium price for the development effort of NASA-ized exhange?

If the answer is no (and I suspect it is), then incentives are aligned so that putting extra effort into security is something an exchange operator should definitely not do.

All of this is also assuming (on faith) that the business model is actually running an exchange, as opposed to a hack-blaming racket.

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by Johnie on Sunday February 15, 2015 @03:14PM (#9053897)
If you believe this, you shouldn't be handling people's money.

It's not just about losing the bitcoin, people running these exchanges may be personally liable.

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by geofft on Sunday February 15, 2015 @03:49PM (#9054052)
> If you believe this, you shouldn't be handling people's money.

That's true, but who's going to make that happen?

In traditional society, there are laws about who can be a bank and how carefully you need to treat people's money (and often government programs to reimburse customers when good-faith banking efforts fail). Quite a fraction of Bitcoin users are in Bitcoin because, to first order, they want to move away from that model.

So the free market needs to not let their money be handled by people who believe that, and it's not yet clear they care. Probably they will, in a few years.

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by trupedo on Sunday February 15, 2015 @03:22PM (#9053928)
> It's not just about losing the bitcoin, people running these exchanges may be personally liable.

The law is still very murky here, and there are plenty of ways to deflect responsibility.

I'm not saying any of this is right, I'm suggesting that the way our culture and infrastructure is laid out, running a shoddy (perhaps conspiratorial) business might actually be the optimal path -- and that's where we need a solution.

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by Johnie on Sunday February 15, 2015 @03:47PM (#9054042)
If you lose my money that I trusted in your startup, I would file a lawsuit. Whether or not the law is murky, you'll be tied up in legal issues for a long time. Even if the law says you're not legally liable (unlikely), your legal fees would put you in a world of hurt for a long time.

When you're transacting in something of value (whether that be money, digital currency, or pokemon cards) for your users, you better be sure to take it seriously.

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by sillysaurus3 on Sunday February 15, 2015 @04:27PM (#9054198)
If you lose my money that I trusted in your startup, I would file a lawsuit.

I lost money to Mt. Gox, but filing a lawsuit won't get anyone anywhere. Want to see a sad pdf? https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20150202_tibanne.pdf

Sad for the customers. Not for Karpeles, the owner of Mt. Gox. He's still a millionaire and still free, and might even have the customers' bitcoins. No one will probably find out.

I know you're talking about Bitcoin startups founded in the US or EU, but the same applies: If the startup goes bankrupt, the customers won't get anything back. There's nothing to get back except empty coffers.

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by Johnie on Sunday February 15, 2015 @05:37PM (#9054458)
It's not about getting my money back. It's to prevent you and others from making the same mistake in the future. It's also to prevent any fraudulent activity from happening (ie paying out to some creditors while not to others).

We have courts and bankruptcy laws for a reason.

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by sillysaurus3 on Sunday February 15, 2015 @08:36PM (#9054927)
How it works: set up an exchange. Attract users. When enough coins have been deposited into your exchange, steal them. Bitcoin makes this easy to do untraceably. Post a message saying you've been hacked and are shutting down.

You're now a millionaire, and no one can ever take that way from you. No court matters. As long as the price of bitcoin doesn't go down by more than 10x, you'll still be very wealthy. And no one can prove a thing.

This is business as usual in the bitcoin world. Bitcoin has made it very easy to separate people from their money, and courts have no power to do anything about it.

Would you go to prison for a few years to be a millionaire? There is no shortage of people willing to risk this.

As you can see from the rest of the thread, people are willing to believe almost any cover story, no matter how implausible. Even that an exchange could be DDoSed by search engines.

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by blacksqr on Sunday February 15, 2015 @11:39PM (#9055328)
Welcome to the libertarian paradise.
Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by dogecoinbase on Sunday February 15, 2015 @03:53PM (#9054067)
So, if providers were responding correctly to incentives in the Bitcoin exchange marketplace, they'd be both ignoring security, and making themselves difficult to find or identify. Got it.
Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by jerguismi on Sunday February 15, 2015 @03:31PM (#9053984)
Time is also a preference here. There are probably coding NASA-level bitcoin exchanges right now. Meanwhile, there exchanges coded with ruby on rails are here today. If you want to trade today, then you have to choose from the options we have today.
Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by furyofantares on Sunday February 15, 2015 @03:30PM (#9053972)
Customers just paid an extreme price by choosing not to demand better practices and pay a premium for them. (As did the exchange, assuming honesty: they lost their whole business.)

This will undoubtedly have the effect that some number of them will stop using services like this until their confidence is restored -- this has undoubtedly been the case with previous attacks as well. And it will prevent future customers who have heard about these types of attacks, or who hear less hype about bitcoin as a result of these types of attacks, from choosing to participate in exchanges until confidence is restored.

Unfortunately it takes time and it takes people getting hurt. And people do get fooled multiple times when there is "get rich quick" hype. But eventually they stop getting fooled or run out of money.

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by panarky on Sunday February 15, 2015 @05:17PM (#9054373)
When you build something that stores or transfers money, you will attract adversaries.

These adversaries will have more skill, more time, and more tenacity than you do.

Knowing this threat environment, what will you do differently from the dozens exchanges that have come before you and failed?

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by stcredzero on Sunday February 15, 2015 @05:32PM (#9054433)
NASA code than startup technical-debt code

I have a friend who ported then maintained critical software at NASA about almost decade ago. He said that introducing source control was viewed as "a radical idea" at the time. Also, management seemed to go with superstition and "truthiness" as far as making decisions. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" was the management mantra.

(I would reveal the piece of software he was working on, but that would easily reveal his identity.)

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by EpicEng on Sunday February 15, 2015 @10:31PM (#9055185)
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is probably a good mantra to have when your code can kill people.
Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by stcredzero on Monday February 16, 2015 @01:54AM (#9055684)
But when you have discovered that your code is logically or mathematically inconsistent, you really need a better justification for leaving it than, "Well, it's worked so far." That's exactly the kind of thinking that resulted in both shuttle disasters, and that's exactly the kind of thing my friend faced from management.

Now hardware: The NASA hardware guys who showed up to the Houston hackerspace always really impressed me. (But what do I know? I'm a software guy.)

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by EpicEng on Monday February 16, 2015 @12:59PM (#9058145)
Sure; I suppose it comes down to your definition of "broken". I would consider inconsistent results broken and, as you say, a thorough analysis should be performed to assess the impact.

I was thinking more along the lines of "I don't like this code, let's refactor". That can be dangerous.

Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by stcredzero on Monday February 16, 2015 @07:40PM (#9059976)
I think management was traumatized by some of the hubristic "let's refactor" crowd, and overcompensated. My friend was a physics major, not CS, and his programming style was cautious, conservative, and workman-like. His physics and math was top notch, and that's where his objections to the NASA code came from.
Re:Excoin exchange's Bitcoins stolen, will be shutting down by cordite on Sunday February 15, 2015 @06:25PM (#9054622)
I refer to modern but rigorous NASA development practices, from design to verification.