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Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday February 08, 2015 @02:14PM (#9018158)
There is an unintuitive takeaway from this.

The reason Firefox is allowing this is that browsers and operating systems produced by nonprofits acting in the public interest don't have enough market share to resist being dictated to by for-profit corporations. Imagine FirefoxOS had the market share of Android and Debian had the market share of Windows. Would we still be having this conversation?

The free software people have been preaching this for decades. It turns out they're right.

So don't install Chrome, use Firefox. Then next time it will be easier for Mozilla to do the right thing.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by charlieflowers on Sunday February 08, 2015 @02:42PM (#9018245)
I'm surprised to realize this: Firefox must be the best browser there is, in order to fulfill its mission.

Shouldn't be so surprising in retrospect (like many things), but I never fully got that before.

Power comes from being chosen by end users. Firefox needs power to be able to resist this kind of crap. In this case, they didn't quite have enough power (probably because they let memory bloat get away from them a few years back, giving Chrome the upper hand which is has done a decent job of holding on to).

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by cpeterso on Sunday February 08, 2015 @03:53PM (#9018517)
Similarly, Mozilla tried to take the high road against H.264 in Firefox. Google pledged to drop H.264 from Chrome, too, but reneged on its promise. Mozilla lost users.

Google is trying to do the same with EME over HTTPS. Google wants Mozilla to stand together with Firefox and Chrome resisting EME over unprotected HTTP. But they want Firefox to go first (again), even though Chrome is already shipping EME.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by lazyjones on Sunday February 08, 2015 @09:08PM (#9019439)
> Firefox must be the best browser there is, in order to fulfill its mission.

Does caving in to commercial pressure and adding unpopular (for its core audience) features like DRM advance it in that direction, or in the opposite direction? I believe "more of the same" isn't going to help it pull ahead, it needs distinctive features such as more privacy, fewer ads, or even a strong anti-DRM stance.

As a (former) large-ish website owner I have to disagree with your assessment. Even browsers with 5% market share (Firefox has 15-20%) have the power to influence design decisions and thus counter browser-based DRM adoption, except strong de facto monopolies (like Google, youtube) that can make or break browsers by supporting or excluding them (youtube has even more influence than Google search currently because of its unique content). It's true that Firefox was simply too bad to use for a couple of years (cue conspiracy theories about Google being their main source of income and desperately trying to push Chrome), but it still had power due to its large user base.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by JohnTHaller on Sunday February 08, 2015 @06:33PM (#9019036)
A rather large part of Chrome's growth came from marketing. Pushing users of both Internet Explorer and Firefox to download it directly from the Google.com homepage, online ads, offline ads, etc. Firefox has never had access to that kind of marketing.

And don't underestimate all the bundleware installs, too. Even today, when upgrading your version of Java in Windows, it still tries to trick you into installing Chrome.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by bigbugbag on Sunday February 08, 2015 @05:26PM (#9018840)
It's not about being the best browser, opera has long been the best browser as almost every innovation got copied from opera. It still failed to get a global market share and only came to lead some local markets.

Besides chrome didn't get its market share on technical merit alone, but mostly by paying for its installation and targeted PR.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by charlieflowers on Sunday February 08, 2015 @07:38PM (#9019209)
What is your criteria for declaring Opera the best browser? I tried it a few years ago, but found it awkward and slow. I'm sure I did not give it a fair chance by reading about its features ... I merely tried it briefly and went back to Firefox.
Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by yohui on Sunday February 08, 2015 @03:32PM (#9018433)
Even if Firefox were a monopoly, content owners would still desire DRM. Without the option to deliver that in harmony with HTML5, they'd just continue to use Flash, Silverlight, etc.

We don't need counterfactuals to imagine a world without EME; we've lived it.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday February 08, 2015 @03:43PM (#9018483)
Flash and Silverlight were both dying before EME existed. Basically all it took was for Apple to say "no Flash" and Flash was as good as dead. I don't understand why you think that a free software infrastructure with a strong market position would be incapable of doing the same thing.
Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by quonn on Sunday February 08, 2015 @03:52PM (#9018511)
They were dying for most uses, but not for DRM-based video streaming.

Also, Flash did not die, just because Apple said so although that certainly had an impact. It also died, because the web was getting better and better; because it was a proprietary tool not available to everyone; because it integrates poorly with the whole architecture of the web - e.g. dynamic generation on the server; because it had a bad reputation due to security and performance issues; and because a plugin, even if widespread, is still a dependency that you want to avoid.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday February 08, 2015 @04:12PM (#9018585)
> They were dying for most uses, but not for DRM-based video streaming.

It is a tautology that DRM-based video streaming is going to use some kind of DRM. The point is that if several major platforms provide no support for any form of DRM then DRM will be removed from video streaming. The idea that video providers are going to give up a majority of their customers because their devices support no DRM is not reasonable.

> Also, Flash did not die, just because Apple said so although that certainly had an impact. It also died, because the web was getting better and better; because it was a proprietary tool not available to everyone; because it integrates poorly with the whole architecture of the web - e.g. dynamic generation on the server; because it had a bad reputation due to security and performance issues; and because a plugin, even if widespread, is still a dependency that you want to avoid.

I'm not sure what point you're making... that Flash sucks and died for multiple reasons? Granted. But it was still dying before EME existed and DRM wasn't enough to save it.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by mike_hearn on Sunday February 08, 2015 @05:10PM (#9018785)
Lol, no. If every web browser said "no DRM in video, freedom or death!" then the movie studios would say ..... OK. We'll ask users to download an app instead. Or use Apple TV/Xbox/PlayStation to watch things rather than their browsers. And consumers would. End of story.

Browser makers don't have some crippling monopoly power over how computers work that they can use to force submission on an entire industry (thank god).

The idea that the movie industry will give up on something they view as a fundamental requirement for them to earn money, just because browser makers throw a hissy fit, is not reasonable. The movie industry will find a way because they believe their industry must, or else it will wither and die.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday February 08, 2015 @07:45PM (#9019228)
> OK. We'll ask users to download an app instead.

At which point they'll be losing customers. And if the operating system doesn't support apps with DRM, what then? Ask the user to buy a new device?

> Or use Apple TV/Xbox/PlayStation to watch things rather than their browsers.

At which point they'll be losing more customers. And if the dominant console is also something that doesn't support DRM, what then?

> Browser makers don't have some crippling monopoly power over how computers work that they can use to force submission on an entire industry (thank god).

No, but customers do. Which is why customers should choose browsers and operating systems that do what customers want.

> The idea that the movie industry will give up on something they view as a fundamental requirement for them to earn money, just because browser makers throw a hissy fit, is not reasonable. The movie industry will find a way because they believe their industry must, or else it will wither and die.

This is just meaningless rhetoric. It is possible to make money without DRM as proven by the fact that many people are doing it. Piracy does not exclude profitability as proven by the fact that there are more Disney movies on The Pirate Bay than there are in the Disney store and Disney is still making tons of money.

The people who think the movie industry would disappear without DRM are idiots. The harder we make it for those idiots, the more share they'll lose to people who know better and the fewer idiots will remain.

It's not even like this is a fight. It's just widespread misunderstanding. DRM is bad for the movie industry. It locks customers into closed platforms which put the companies that control those platforms between the studios and their customers. It causes viewers to derive less value from DRM-encumbered content, which causes them to consume it less often and not be willing to pay as much for it. It causes piracy to increase because it has zero effect on the experience of downloading from The Pirate Bay and a negative effect on the experience of paying customers. The studios have been sold a bill of goods.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by bigbugbag on Sunday February 08, 2015 @05:32PM (#9018861)
Not sure what imaginary world you live in, but in the real world internet users just provide themselves for what the studios refuse to do, see piracy.

Video on the web was a reality before flash came to be.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by wodenokoto on Sunday February 08, 2015 @09:22PM (#9019466)
But what happened to netflix when apple said no plugins? They made it an app.

The whole idea behind the no flash movement was to move services that relied on a plugin, away from the web and onto the app store.

Apple wasn't fighting for free technology, they were pushing users onto Apple's own version of EME.

Let's imagine all web browsers drop flash, silverlight, EME and all the other common technologies used for DRM. What do you think netflix will do on the desktop? Will they move to pure HTML video or will they start building desktop apps?

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by AnthonyMouse on Monday February 09, 2015 @01:41AM (#9019978)
> Apple wasn't fighting for free technology, they were pushing users onto Apple's own version of EME.

That's the trouble. They practically did it by accident. Imagine they actually were fighting for free technology. Then they wouldn't allow DRM in any apps either and what you're worried about goes away.

You get to the same place with licensing instead of restrictive app stores for actually free systems. For example put some language in the license (call it LGPLv4) for all the libraries for putting video on the screen that requires any application implementing DRM to be distributed under the GPL. You can have all the DRM you like as long as the source code is provided and anyone is allowed to make and distribute changes. :)

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by jegoodwin3 on Sunday February 08, 2015 @04:42PM (#9018695)
'market position' is a red herring -- it's a proxy for Developer Will. Developers care about the market share of what platform they write for, and they care about it more than principle.

You might as well say, if the developer community got its act together and stood on principle, no company could caputure 'market share' without their consent.

The problem is not the Mozilla non-profit knuckling under -- it is developers failing to have an institution similar to other professions, such as the Bar or AMA, giving them principles.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by AnthonyMouse on Monday February 09, 2015 @03:54AM (#9020251)
Developers have to care about market share. Writing code that no one ever runs is tilting at windmills.

A professional organization would have no control over that whatsoever. People have principles. Principles don't come from bureaucracies. Professional organizations are full of politics and politics and ethics are entirely orthogonal.

If anything professional organizations are used to undermine an individual's principles: Economic interests pressure the professional organization to approve some unethical behavior and then anyone who objects to it is pointed to the professional organization's approval and told to shut up and do it.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by quonn on Sunday February 08, 2015 @02:23PM (#9018187)
Firefox has improved a lot, since I switched to Chrome. What I'm waiting for is proper sandboxing using a multi-process architecture (they are working on it) and rubberband scrolling. Recently, Chrome has also improved profiles a lot, and I use that to isolate Facebook. I don't think Firefox has a comparable UI for this.
Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by callahad on Sunday February 08, 2015 @05:35PM (#9018873)
The Profilist add-on dramatically improves the multi-profile experience in Firefox. It's effectively as seamless as Chrome's. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/profilist/
Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by JupiterMoon on Sunday February 08, 2015 @03:41PM (#9018470)
Firefox profiles allow this functionality simply type "firefox -ProfileManager" into your terminal...
Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by TylerE on Sunday February 08, 2015 @03:48PM (#9018495)
Functionality that involves invoking a command line for a web browser isn't.
Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by JupiterMoon on Sunday February 08, 2015 @04:16PM (#9018601)
Yeah the UI is clunky. They should make it easier to use.

Try setting up an alias in your bashrc? If you really want to point-and-click just add the appropriate entries to your launcher/menu?

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by Caspy7 on Sunday February 08, 2015 @04:29PM (#9018653)
I'm not on Linux, but don't they allow you to create shortcuts with command line options like Windows?
Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by forgotpasswd3x on Sunday February 08, 2015 @06:05PM (#9018956)
They do.
Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by forgotpasswd3x on Sunday February 08, 2015 @06:04PM (#9018954)
Sure functions when I use it.
Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by quonn on Sunday February 08, 2015 @04:00PM (#9018539)
Yeah, but Chrome now has a simple menu item that creates a new window for a different profile in just one click. I have skinned that window, so it's easy to distinguish.
Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by johnny22 on Sunday February 08, 2015 @04:51PM (#9018732)
they were developing a standalone profile manager at one point, but it hasn't been updated in awhile.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Profile_Manager

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by Caspy7 on Sunday February 08, 2015 @04:28PM (#9018645)
Here's an addon that allows you to sandbox sites like Facebook. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/priv8/
Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by greggman on Sunday February 08, 2015 @05:03PM (#9018770)
That's not a sandbox by the same definition has Chrome.

Sandbox = CPU sandbox, not just cookie isolation.

To achieve that in Firefox will require massive re-writing of lots of code to basically do all the stuff Chrome was built to do. Chrome doesn't allow the CPU process running the webpage to access any OS services or hardware. All access to those are in other processes that do tons of validation that what the page is asking for it should be allowed to access. That way, even if there's a code execution bug it's unlikely to be able do any damage.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by greggman on Sunday February 08, 2015 @04:58PM (#9018755)
Unfortunately Firefox has 5x the code exploit bugs vs Chrome. If we just take 2014 Firefox had 13x code exploits over Chrome.

http://www.cvedetails.com/product/15031/Google-Chrome.html?v...

http://www.cvedetails.com/product/3264/Mozilla-Firefox.html?...

Until that number changes I'm not switching to back to Firefox.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by mikeratcliffe on Tuesday February 10, 2015 @06:13AM (#9026491)
"Until that number changes I'm not switching to back to Firefox."

Maybe you should switch then, why?

A lot of this information is subject to interpretation.

# of Vulnerabilities in 2014: Chrome: 127 Firefox: 108

The code exploit stats show how many exploits were found and patched, which is completely different from the number of exploits that a browser has.

Only 4 exploits were found and fixed in Chrome whilst 55 were found and fixed in Firefox... in my opinion that makes Firefox the leader as they found and fixed more vulnerabilities.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by bigbugbag on Sunday February 08, 2015 @05:21PM (#9018820)
Unfortunately Chrome is a google product. I'm not using chrome ever, why would I voluntarily install spyware ? One that bundles itself with many freeware.

Firefox sucks a lot (no usable UI integration, missing many basic modern features, changes stripping user of choice, and more) but chrome sucks to infinity and is automatically disqualified, I would consider Iron but not chrome. Now my hopes are for vivaldi, I'm waiting for it to get out of tech preview.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by greggman on Sunday February 08, 2015 @07:39PM (#9019213)
You can use Chromium and have all the supposed "Spyware" removed. Although there is no spyware in Chrome.

Also Chrome doesn't bundle itself with anything other than a special more secure version of flash which you can turn off. If you got a version bundled with something else that was a fake install by a 3rd party. The same thing happens to firefox

Here's a search for chrome. First 3 links are fake installers made by a 3rd party that likely installs a virus/trojan/rootkit

http://i.imgur.com/RpXy3bz.png

Here's a search for firefox. first link is also a fake installers made by a 3rd party that likely installs a virus/trojan/rootkit

http://i.imgur.com/12v1r8n.png

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by walterbell on Sunday February 08, 2015 @09:15PM (#9019455)
Is there a recommended Chromium-based stable binary distribution for Windows, which receives timely and automatic security updates?
Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by bigbugbag on Sunday February 08, 2015 @05:12PM (#9018792)
Mozilla has a loooooong history of not doing the right thing.

Mozilla is made of google money and advertising money.

Doing the right thing means doing it regardless of market share and piles of money.

Re:Firefox’s adoption of closed-source DRM breaks my heart (... by bigbugbag on Sunday February 08, 2015 @05:58PM (#9018937)
Downvote me to oblivion but the facts are mozilla has long been funded by google and advertising, thus actively contributed (and still contributing) to turn the web into a surveillance tool. You may have forgotten but I still remember how mozilla alienated developers around the time firefox was still firebird (or was it when it was phoenix?). How they killed the mozilla suite that turned out to perform better than the unbloated replacement for it. Then there's the legal threats towards debian.

These are only a few examples off the top of my head, but one does not have to look very deep to find a trail of not doing the right thing at mozilla along its history. Sorry if pointing this out infuriates the fanboï in you, but mozilla has done its share of wrong along the otherwise good stuff.