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Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by ceejayoz on Monday February 02, 2015 @02:09PM (#8986089)
> I get what they're trying to accomplish, we all want faster more reliable service, but as comparison is anyone 100% happy with their utility (power, water, etc)?

I am. My water is clean and I've never had an outage. My power is reasonably cheap and quite reliable. The state doesn't allow either one to raise rates exorbitantly from year to year, either, and despite that both have made major upgrades to their facilities in the last few years.

Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by Terr_ on Monday February 02, 2015 @02:37PM (#8986339)
And General Electric doesn't change you extra for your power when they detect it's being used in a non-GE toaster.
Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by spiritplumber on Monday February 02, 2015 @02:16PM (#8986155)
I'm surprised at how reliable utilities are in America. I was in a low income neighborhood in San Antonio during university, and had maybe 2 blackouts in 3 years.
Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by pluma on Monday February 02, 2015 @02:21PM (#8986202)
Where are you from exactly? I live in Europe and 2 blackouts in 3 years would still be an outrage.

(To be fair, we have less natural disasters.)

Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by soccerdave on Monday February 02, 2015 @02:26PM (#8986248)
The length of the blackout would probably need to be given to provide some perspective. 2 30 minute blackouts would be much easier to deal with than 1 3 day blackout.
Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by sliverstorm on Monday February 02, 2015 @02:39PM (#8986353)
We're missing a lot of context. San Antonio is in Texas, which means these could have been rolling blackouts, one of the last-ditch efforts employed by power companies during record summer temperature spikes (which translate to monumental load spikes in the form of A/C)
Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by mbreese on Monday February 02, 2015 @02:51PM (#8986448)
Or it could be weather related (like most outages), or a bad transformer, or a car running into a pole, or a ton of things...

So, you're right that we're missing a lot of context - including the duration. A 30 min outage due to an accident is very different from a 3 day outage due to a storm.

And like you said, AC can be a big drain on the grid during the summer.

(Disclaimer: I'm not sure what the weather in San Antonio is like...)

Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by lkbm on Monday February 02, 2015 @05:01PM (#8987315)
Not very rainy. No hurricanes or blizzards. Very hot. Usually in a drought, and not to uncommonly 50+ days exceeding 100 Fahrenheit in a year.

(I'm in Austin, which is pretty close to San Antonio, but I see now is considerably hotter: http://www.srh.noaa.gov/ewx/?n=100degreedays.htm ww.usclimatedata.com/climate/san-antonio/texas/united-states/ustx1200 )

Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by kevin_thibedeau on Monday February 02, 2015 @03:20PM (#8986669)
The heat alone contributes to reduced life of power handling equipment. Most parts of Europe don't have to deal with that.
Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by spiritplumber on Monday February 02, 2015 @04:21PM (#8987077)
The Italian Alps.
Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by emcrazyone on Monday February 02, 2015 @02:33PM (#8986313)
this is a ridiculous comparison. You can't compare water, gas, and electrics to the likes of providing Internet. Gas, electric, water are either on or off. Internet connections come with tons of setup pitfalls. A bad DNS can make it appear your Internet is out in one way, while a broken cable inside the house can make it look broken another way and a virus on a computer is another.

It's just not a simple check and you're not going to find people to fix your internet with a proverbial wrench. When is the last time your water pipe had a virus? It will often taken digging into the problem with a fair bit of domain knowledge. And if Obama care (healthcare.gov) is any indication of the US Government's ability to manage or enact such things, I'd be worried too.

Every time this topic comes up, people like to try and compare it to the utilities services and you just can't.

Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by unprepare on Monday February 02, 2015 @03:20PM (#8986666)
All of your examples have direct parallels

>A bad DNS can make it appear your Internet is out in one way

broken wire in the power system between your house and the pole (is your neighbor digging?)

>while a broken cable inside the house can make it look broken another way

i think thats pretty direct. a broken wire in your house makes it seem like the power is out.

>a virus on a computer is another

I could have a device flipping my circuit breaker, or corrosion on wires. My faucet could have any number of bacteria.

>When is the last time your water pipe had a virus

http://www.fair-safety.com/fair-outbreaks/view/county-fair-w... 1999

>It will often taken digging into the problem with a fair bit of domain knowledge

like electricians and plumbers?

Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by nemo on Monday February 02, 2015 @02:48PM (#8986422)
The power grid is not simple. It's a highly complex system that requires constant monitoring and adjustment by power companies to ensure consistent delivery that's not much different than what an ISP should be doing.

A bad circuit breaker or wiring issues can make it look like problems that someone might blame on the grid, there are user-side config issues there too.

"And if Obama care (healthcare.gov) is any indication of the US Government's ability to manage or enact such things, I'd be worried too."

It would still be the ISPs responsibility to manage their issues, there's no isp.gov planned.

Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by Terr_ on Monday February 02, 2015 @02:48PM (#8986428)
"It's not a utility unless you can clearly assign blame for all possible outages"?

Fuck no! My appliances' fuses might burn out, my home breakers might be tripped, and my neighbor might dig into a powerline, but electricity is still "a utility".

It's a style of business relationship, with the regulatory, legal, and social expectations that come with it. The technology (and failure modes) are secondary at best.

Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by spellboots on Monday February 02, 2015 @03:17PM (#8986647)
> When is the last time your water pipe had a virus?

"From 2005-2006, 20% of US outbreaks of virus and bacteria in water were caused by old, dirty pipes"

http://www.premierwatermn.com/water-quality/water-contaminan...

Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by emcrazyone on Monday February 02, 2015 @03:12PM (#8986614)
I can except down votes; I just know it's folks who don't know how an ISP works - sort of a personal indicator of how ill informed a lot of people are on how things really work.

I actually own two companies. One is an ISP and the other is a PCO (Private Cable Operator) where I provide Internet over DOCSIS along with CableTV. I also have had experience dealing with right of way like utilities for putting fiber in the ground, and public WIFI.

I promise you my support costs per man-hour are much higher than your electric company or water utility; not to mention a homeowner can do most troubleshooting their self. Any schmuck can flick a breaker and turn a wrench and at a minimum it can be explained over the phone what to look for or what to smell for.

but it's not so easy when you need to understand tools like Cisco routers, BGP filters, DNS (nslookup) outputs, some dude has a virus or, worst, a torrent... NAT, DNAT setup on some brain dead Linksys routers, the list goes on.

Supplying Internet to people is an endless battle of convincing them, at times, it's their machine. You just don't have this with utilities that are either on/off, flowing or not. Rolling a truck to investigate, I just don't find as many skilled IT people as you do plumbers and electricians and it cost more to train IT people too.

We have one property that is Section-8 housing (don't ask). We supply them CableTV along with Internet. Learned the hardware this was a mistake. You have the I know it all type who will yell at my techs. even has his own cable modem running Linux, you have the crybaby type who complains her internet is too slow and pleads for us to come fix her computer, then you have the old people who don't know how to turn on a computer. These issues don't exist with utility companies. You don't have to educate end users about how water flows through a pipe, or how to flip a circuit breaker...

See with utilities, it's not that hard to figure out what the customer is complaining about REALLY. With IT/Internet, you have things that can become problems for other people. Someone running a torrent in apartment 1B, for example, can cause someone in apartment 1A to call and say the Internet is out. Of course we have ways to track this, but the equipment is expensive and it cost considerably more to teach someone how to configure a Cisco router for traffic profiling, how to look at SNMP reports, MPLS bandwidth reports, etc...

Please tell me how gas, electric, or even water has a challenge nearly as close or as costly on a per/person basis?

Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by nemo on Monday February 02, 2015 @03:38PM (#8986773)
The real answer is that you're assuming the wrong thing.

Yes, networks are complex and require skilled techs to keep running, but that's completely irrelevant to the F.C.C. classifying Internet access under Title II. ISPs will not have any notable new burdens regarding customer service/support/troubleshooting, but will have restrictions on being permitted to engage in a few predatory practices.

Re:F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as ... by unprepare on Monday February 02, 2015 @06:26PM (#8987835)
>even has his own cable modem running Linux, you have the crybaby type who complains her internet is too slow and pleads for us to come fix her computer, then you have the old people who don't know how to turn on a computer.

I've dealt extensivley with at least 7 ISPs in the US, and not a single one would even consider helping even a business customer troubleshoot their own equipment.

If you are supporting peoples privately owned equipment you are going WAY above and beyond what any service provider i have dealt with in the US is willing to do.