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Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by anilgulecha on Monday February 02, 2015 @06:24AM (#8983670)
I think this was answered. It's bad because teachers would push for a platform they presumably know more about -- Windows.
Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by bryondowd on Monday February 02, 2015 @10:24AM (#8984563)
Going to play devil's advocate here. Teachers will push Windows, because they know about it and they can teach it. If you throw a pile of linux machines at teachers, how many are going to have the time, ability, and will to actually learn it well enough to teach it?

It's hard enough to get a school to teach kids anything beyond using Office. I'd be happy to make things as easy as possible on the teacher who are willing to go the extra mile to teach with a Pi, without making them go another 10 miles learning a new OS to do it.

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by zanny on Monday February 02, 2015 @10:58AM (#8984763)
Except the teacher on Windows by design cannot teach a huge chunk of the stack that makes a computer a computer. They talk about hardware, maybe a bit about the ToS breaking NT source floating around this comment section, skip over everything else and land on this theme park island of C# standard library and Windows forms.

It leaves a huge gap in the childs education on computing that is one the major reasons so many people today do not even know Windows is not the only OS out there. And of course if they learn on Windows they are going to stay on Windows a huge majority of the time and it just breeds another generation of .net developers who would have a panic attack if a line didn't end in a semicolon.

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by slantyyz on Monday February 02, 2015 @11:31AM (#8984998)
>> Except the teacher on Windows by design cannot teach a huge chunk of the stack that makes a computer a computer.

Is this really necessary for most kids? My view might be skewed because I grew up in the 80s, but everything I learned back then were things like Basic, COBOL, Fortran and Pascal. One of my high school classes did some assembly language on the Apple II, but I'm not sure most of the people in my class wanted to get down to the nuts and bolts.

If a kid is really into the nuts and bolts, they'll likely discover Linux organically. I learned most of my computing skills outside of class by doing my own research. And back then, there was no such thing as Google, just magazines at the newsstand and books in bookstores and the library.

I would say the majority of kids would probably be content enough learning how to make a web app, which can be easily done on Windows without needing knowledge of the stack that makes a computer a computer.

I just switched back to Windows from OSX, and the only reason why I have Visual Studio on my machine is so that I can compile some of my node libraries. I hardly think using Windows will breed a generation of .net developers at all.

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by yellowapple on Monday February 02, 2015 @09:09PM (#8988484)
> but everything I learned back then were things like Basic, COBOL, Fortran and Pascal.

Think about what you had back then, though. At best, you had Mac OS (which was as abstracted away from actual computer internals as Windows is today). All the other options - whether it was Commodores or Ataris or DOS-based IBM-compatibles - involved working very close to the hardware. You were manually dealing with interrupts and memory access and other very-low-level components.

Basically, the reason why you didn't have to delve very far into the underlying system was because there wasn't an underlying system in the first place for you to delve into. COBOL and Pascal were pretty high-level, but BASIC and Fortran are along the same lines as C (especially back then): very low-level, very directly-wired-to-hardware, very thin abstractions over raw assembly. You were already delving into way more than students today would ever be able to delve into on a Windows-NT-based operating system (where you don't even have DOS internals to muck around with, unlike on Windows 3.x and 9x - which is what I personally grew up on).

Yeah, students might be able to get by on a bit of HTML and Javascript and maybe Ruby or Python, but I would be lying if I claimed that such an education would be as in-depth and worthwhile as what your or I experienced pre-2000.

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by slantyyz on Tuesday February 03, 2015 @12:59AM (#8989086)
>> Think about what you had back then, though. At best, you had Mac OS

The best my high schools had were the Apple II family and PDP mini computers -- my first high school course in BASIC (I already knew Basic from my home computers) -- we were marking up Hollerith cards with Sharpies. You don't know painful debugging until you have to manually scour a deck of optical cards looking for an errant black mark.

We did not deal with interrupts, memory access or low level components. What we learned was more about logic -- not much different than what I do today.

The closest I ever got to memory access in BASIC were the occasional peeks and pokes, and even then, you didn't need them to write a useful program. Being able to build something even as rudimentary as a CMS today on (insert language of choice here) is more broadly useful than anything I came out of high school with.

Also, remember that nothing was really cross platform back then. Most languages were procedural, and free databases (relational or not) -- forget about it. I was on Mac at the tail end of high school, and if you wanted a tool like Lightspeed C or Lightspeed Pascal - those were way out of the budget of a high school student.

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by yellowapple on Tuesday February 03, 2015 @01:19PM (#8992060)
You were still much closer to the hardware than virtually every modern programmer outside of the embedded programming space (and even then), which is my point. What you were doing was effectively operating system programming, seeing as there wasn't really much of an operating system in the modern, traditionally-understood sense (except for the PDPs, which ran some timesharing system like ITS or Unix or somesuch, but those also tended to arrive with the full source code, at least in the case of Unix, so that one could port it oneself).
Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by slantyyz on Tuesday February 03, 2015 @05:16PM (#8993843)
I don't get how an interpreted language like Basic on an Apple ][ series is considered to be any closer to the hardware than Node is today when most of the stuff we were programming amounted to writing scripts to solving simple math, logic or business problems (keeping it the context of high school). The goal of the teachers was basically to teach us the difference between procedures and functions and some basic concepts like recursion.

"What you were doing was effectively operating system programming" is a _major_ stretch.

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by yellowapple on Tuesday February 03, 2015 @09:03PM (#8994922)
Because BASIC on an Apple II doesn't involve a massive JIT compiler running on a massive userland and drivers running on a massive kernel with virtual memory and processes and such. It instead involves a very thin layer over the firmware of the computer itself. Sure, you weren't doing a lot of PEEKing or POKEing, but the fact that you could do those things proves my point.

The sorts of programming you were doing was barely higher-level than the sorts of programming involved with an OSDev-style "Hello, world!" kernel[0]. My remark is not a stretch at all. At most you had a few thin conveniences (like having some graphics-related features already available to you, since Woz had prioritized that when he designed the Apple II's BASIC interpreter); beyond that, it was direct access to everything from RAM to tapes (unless you were running Apple DOS, but that was not at all required for BASIC programming on an Apple II, and the Apple II didn't ship with it).

[0]: http://wiki.osdev.org/Bare_Bones#Writing_a_kernel_in_C

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by slantyyz on Tuesday February 03, 2015 @09:45PM (#8995042)
>> barely higher-level

BASIC for all intents and purposes, was considered a high level language when I learned it.

From what I remember, BASIC kinda had a similar reputation as PHP does today (probably unfair) in that it wasn't generally taken very seriously as a programming language. You didn't use BASIC to make real programs on an Apple ][. For that, you'd do it in assembly or machine language. That bias is still stuck in my head even after 3 decades.

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by 72deluxe on Monday February 02, 2015 @11:47AM (#8985100)
Excellent points, your "theme park land" C# comment made me laugh
Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by UK-AL on Monday February 02, 2015 @11:18AM (#8984902)
I think modern .net devs chose the platform out of its advantages, not because its what they only know.

I know fair few .net developers, and they've all had linux years, and tried various languages.

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by 72deluxe on Monday February 02, 2015 @11:49AM (#8985113)
All the .NET devs and classic ASP (!) devs I know were/are scared stiff of Linux, see it as a hobby environment not used widely (they obviously don't think about servers, they use Windows servers and use the magic that IIS + .NET does for them), don't see outside the Windows development world and pronounce Linux as Lyenucks. Giving them a Raspberry Pi with Linux on them would kill them.

I think they should widen out.

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by rbanffy on Monday February 02, 2015 @02:25PM (#8986241)
A lot of them choose .NET because their CTOs chose it because a Microsoft account representative told them it was enterprise-grade and had full Microsoft support while playing golf.
Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by watty on Monday February 02, 2015 @06:48AM (#8983734)
And there's nothing wrong with that. Kids will be more productive on Windows and more likely be able to take those skills with them. How many kids need to know linux in the future? Here's what the Linux trend looks like: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=linux
Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by aruggirello on Monday February 02, 2015 @08:51AM (#8984109)
'linux' is a single keyword, while GNU/Linux OS might show up as a wide set of different keywords, like ubuntu, debian, mint, arch, centos, rhel, fedora, gentoo, opensuse. Note that this is not the case with Windows, iOS, OSX. So, it would be interesting to see the combined interest of all those added to that of 'linux' for a more correct perspective - not considering Android of course, since it's not a GNU/Linux system.

BTW it seems interest in Windows is also halving every ~10 years (though not as fast as 'linux'):

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=windows

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by aruggirello on Thursday February 05, 2015 @05:00AM (#9002462)
Edit: I was partly wrong; the matter is much more complex than that: interest in iOS and OSX might show up as interest in iPhone/iPad, and Mac/Mac OS; interest in Windows, besides any interest in 'surface', might also show up as a generic interest in 'PC' or similar terms: you can make such assumption, since anyway those interested in 'linux' or 'OSX' would probably avoid using terms generally associated with Windows.
Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by eterm on Monday February 02, 2015 @07:00AM (#8983767)
>Kids will be more productive on Windows

Citation needed.

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by WorldWideWayne on Monday February 02, 2015 @08:42AM (#8984075)
Didn't we just establish that it's the system that kids already know more about?
Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by dandelion_lover on Monday February 02, 2015 @09:10AM (#8984177)
Not kids. Teachers.
Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by spdustin on Monday February 02, 2015 @10:08AM (#8984468)
Sorry, and it pains me to say it as I'm the patriarch of an OS X family, but: Kids. Their first exposure to computers will be at home. And it'll therefore likely be Windows. My kids don't know Windows, they know OS X and iOS. Sometimes, after they've visited friends, they comment that they played on a computer that "looked weird", but they've never had a problem adapting.

It's that last bit that seems to suggest a "who cares what the OS is, kids don't care" idea. In my view, though, it really doesn't. Kids aren't known to have a higher order of executive function. They'll generally just use whatever the trusted adults in their lives use.

Those trusted adults should be exposing kids to all the options, so that the kids are better prepared to make decisions when their executive function skills catch up.

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by 72deluxe on Monday February 02, 2015 @11:50AM (#8985123)
Was this weird computer they used a Windows machine or was it an old OSX version? :-)

Only kidding. I went to PC World the other day and attempted to use one of the Windows PCs and quickly became angry with Windows 8.1. Seems I have been using Macs for too long (and I used to use Windows daily, now I do but in a VM and it pains me).

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by freehunter on Monday February 02, 2015 @09:41AM (#8984314)
Is it not more productive for teachers to teach something they know? If a kid has a question about Linux and the teacher doesn't know Linux, they won't be able to answer the question. Likewise if a kid has a question about Windows and the teacher doesn't know Windows, they can't answer it.

It doesn't matter what system it is, teachers are best at teaching what they already know.

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by dandelion_lover on Monday February 02, 2015 @12:58PM (#8985542)
If a teacher only knows DOS, he/she should teach DOS? ;)
Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by freehunter on Monday February 02, 2015 @04:46PM (#8987233)
I didn't say "should only teach". If your (obvious facetious, I know that) argument actually followed mine, it would say "A teacher only knows DOS, they would be most effective at teaching DOS". Which is true.
Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by yellowapple on Monday February 02, 2015 @09:23PM (#8988523)
The point, though, of the parent commenter was that just because a teacher can teach something "effectively" doesn't mean that something should be taught in the first place.

There are plenty of teachers throughout the United States who are effective at teaching creationism to their students. I think we can all agree that doing so is not healthy for those students.

Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by WorldWideWayne on Monday February 02, 2015 @08:24PM (#8988343)
OK, but doesn't it follow that the kids would be more productive if the teachers know the OS and are able to help out?
Re:Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 by yellowapple on Monday February 02, 2015 @09:20PM (#8988509)
> How many kids need to know linux in the future?

All of them, if they want any hope of having a programming or system administration job (i.e. the non-executive IT jobs that pay pretty darn well) in the foreseeable future. Linux is what powers the vast majority of web servers nowadays, regardless of whether they're being run by plucky startups or long-tenured industry incumbents. Windows in the server world has effectively been relegated to legacy systems and a smattering of government websites (some of which in and of themselves also count as "legacy systems"), and that market is continuously shrinking as businesses modernize in methodology and technology.